National Defence Committee on Oct. 25th, 2016

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to talk a little about an issue that is very sensitive but is one that is near and dear. As you know, we had some losses in the last year at the Royal Military College. It's under investigation with the board of inquiry. My son lost two classmates this year. Pending the outcome of the inquiry, I'd like to talk a little about the universality of service and the fear that our members have of coming forward when they're struggling.

I don't know if this is something that you've looked into. Members of the Canadian Armed Forces receive medical services through the base. They aren't citizens who can go to a regular doctor outside of the Canadian Armed Forces. They are treated on bases, and so on and so forth. Is there an opportunity to perhaps create what we would call an employee assistance program that is separate from the Canadian Armed Forces, where members could feel that they could go in confidence to seek support if they need it, without fear of being flagged as unfit for service?

Could you elaborate a little on that? Have you done any work in that regard? Is this something that has been brought to your attention?

[Gary Walbourne]

It has been brought to our attention on numerous occasions. They usually come at us from the forum of operational stress injuries, where the member will know that there's something not quite right and is a little reluctant to go the chain of command.

I also have to say that I think the Canadian Armed Forces over the last several years has done a tremendous job in removing that stigma. The senior levels inside this organization, I've seen them actually walk the talk. I'm very pleased with what I'm seeing.

But there still remains a small group of people who are very reluctant to come forward. I asked the question why they are reluctant to come forward. I think that, at some point in time, the malady overtakes the stigma, and you need to have help.

Why is it so difficult to come forward? If they think that they've breached universality of service, they know they're being released. Mostly the stories they hear around transition and release are not great stories. I think we can change that story. I think there are some very practical, simple solutions that we can implement that could make the transitioning from an amazing organization something that may not be palatable to the members but is acceptable to them.

I think the fear and confusion of what potentially may happen holds some people back. We are concerned about it. We do get those individual cases. We apply a lot of resources to them. We really do.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

You segued very well into my next question. What is the impact of these horror stories that we hear? We all have that vision of a former minister of veterans affairs running away from a spouse of an injured vet.

In terms of recruitment and retention, we're trying to recruit the best and the brightest into our Canadian Armed Forces. When they have a feeling that after service or, God forbid, during service something happens to them and they are not going to be taken care of, what impact does that have on recruitment and retention efforts?

We heard, especially from the navy, that we're having problems recruiting and retaining Canadian Armed Forces members. How does the impact of that negativity or that perception of negativity prevent us from getting the best and the brightest?

[Gary Walbourne]

God bless our friends in the media. They've raised many of the issues that are current and important. They report what it is they see.

That message is being received by Canadian citizens. It helps influence the parents of these young cadets or young civilians who are thinking about joining the Canadian Armed Forces.

I've never had the privilege or the honour to serve, but I will say here today, without a doubt, I've worked in and around the military for 15 years, almost 20, and there is no place like it. There is an esprit de corps that I can almost sense. I'm not quite sure what it is. I think you have to serve to understand what that is.

You can do any career you want to do. Pick a career. Anything you can do on civvy street, we do it two times as well. There's an amazing opportunity, I think, for the youth of this country. I think it's an amazing organization. But do we have some problems? We most definitely do.

I think we can change these stories. We can make these positive. We have the Veterans Hiring Act, where a releasing member gets priority opportunity within the federal public service, which is also a good career. It's a great extension. I believe we have all the tools we need to make it a positive story on the street. It's just a matter of stopping some of the practices that we do.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

The title I hold in the highest regard is “military mom”, and I have to say that our men and women serving in the Canadian Armed Forces are top of the top. I agree with you in that regard.

I want to ask one last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We'll have to circle back on that, because you're out of time, but I think we'll have some time.

I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I want to ask another question about something that is very specific to my riding but which I think is a problem across the Canadian Forces. That is the question of our aging building infrastructure and in particular the presence of asbestos on many of the Canadian Forces bases.

I have met with constituents who are civilian employees but also Canadian Forces members who have shown me pictures of asbestos tiles disintegrating in rooms in which they still have to work. We all know the health problems that asbestos can cause.

Has your office been engaged with this issue of asbestos and the health impacts on Canadian Forces members?

[Gary Walbourne]

Yes, we have. Those engagements will usually come from a member who is serving in a particular region, or on a wing or a base, who has discovered something. When we run into it, once the local chain of command is engaged, action comes very quickly, with remediation or segregation of that type of material so that it's not harmful.

We have been involved. I'm guessing there have been three cases since I've been in the chair in which there were some fairly large issues on which we have dealt with the local chain of command. The response has been tremendous. However, I do also understand that we have an aging infrastructure, and it requires some work.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

When would it be appropriate for those members to approach your office with this kind of thing? What I'm hearing locally is that there has been some resistance to acting on the cases they're talking about and that there has been some allegation that some of the reports on the status of buildings haven't been, I'll say, fulsome with the truth about the presence of asbestos and its deteriorating condition.

When is it appropriate for those members to leave the chain of command and actually approach your office on this? This is a question they were asking me.

[Gary Walbourne]

Our office is an office of last resort, but I also offer the service to every member of the defence community. At any point in time, if you're going through a process or have questions about a policy, you can call our office. We will help educate, inform, and get you in touch with the right people. A constituent can call us at any point in time. We will, however, if they have not followed the processes that are in place for them, put them back into the right lane. We'll help and guide, but they have to exhaust what's in the chain of command first.

I have to say that when I've engaged on these types of files, the response has been far more aggressive than anything else I've seen, so judging from my experiences dealing with the local chains of command in various parts of the country, the response to fix these issues has been very quick.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Do you think the prevalence of this problem has been fully appreciated by DND in terms of its need for capital expenditures to replace these facilities, or is that something you can comment on?

[Gary Walbourne]

You're getting way outside my purview of authority, but I have heard that there is concern. People are seized with it; they are aware. I don't think it's something they're trying to hide or run away from.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

That finishes up our formal rounds of questions. We'll go to five-minute questions. We have quite a bit of time left.

I'll start with Mr. Paul-Hus, for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Walbourne, in your annual report you mention the investigation into the grenade explosion that killed cadets in Valcartier, in 1974. In 2015, you issued a report recommending that action be taken in this regard. The minister at the time authorized such action.

I know things are working their way through the system right now. You also said that you would follow up. Do the procedures relating to this event meet your expectations?

[Gary Walbourne]

As for an update on Valcartier, the first piece of business to get accomplished was to have medical assessments done on the survivors of that tragedy and then to put cure plans in place to ensure that they had what they needed to move forward in the immediate future.

My last update is that almost all of those medical plans have been done and are working forward. I understand and believe that the issue about compensation is still outstanding and has not been resolved. From speaking with the minister, maybe 60 days or so ago, I understand that they are engaged directly with the cadet group and are working their way through it.

I am still very optimistic that the immediate needs of those survivors are being met. I believe that within the near future we'll see what the compensation package looks like.

We follow the case closely and carefully, because it was a very important investigation for our office. Right now, things are moving along, and we're just waiting for the finalization.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

I will share my time with Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Mr. Chairman, through you, thank you to my colleague.

I was really pleased to hear that the minister is looking favourably upon your recommendations. While we haven't had a chance to speak to him directly, even though we've asked for him to come before our committee for over six months, I'm pleased to hear that the chief of the defence staff is also looking favourably upon your recommendations.

We here would like to provide a vote of confidence in the work you have done by giving you a stamp of approval, so I move:

That the Committee accept all recommendations in the two reports of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman tabled in September 2016; that the Government implement all of these recommendations as the best way forward to support Canadian Armed Forces members and veterans, particularly those in transition; and that the Government respond to the Committee on this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We respectfully request that the motion be submitted in writing. It's obviously very comprehensive, so we have to see it and think it through. There are a lot of things there. That's what we're going to ask for.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in the routine motions that this committee passed at the beginning of the session, notice of motions says that they require 48 hours' notice if it's to be considered at committee, unless the motion relates directly to business then under consideration. This motion relates directly to this business.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Philippe Grenier-Michaud]

We just need to see it written down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

We're going to suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to give the floor back to Ms. Gallant to clarify the request on that motion.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Essentially, we're stating that the committee agrees with the recommendations, which we've all read, in the two reports and we ask the government to implement these recommendations and report back to this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

It's debatable.

Ms. Romanado.