National Defence Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2016

[Stephen Burt]

Thank you. We do what we can.

In response to your question, primarily what they're involved in is not forecasting on global trends in terms of climate change and whatnot. They're providing day-to-day services for pilots, for ships, for artillery units, and whatnot, in terms of what the particular climatic conditions are that day that will affect the ability to operate. It tends to be very much what's happening in the next day to a couple of weeks that will affect military operations.

That said, we do pay some attention to climate change as a driver in a number of areas. With climate-change-enhanced storms, rising sea levels, coastal flooding, whatnot, there are effects in Canada, but what we see primarily are effects globally, where we then get involved because of a humanitarian need, for example. The military gets called out to deal with some of those things.

Climate change obviously is having an effect on our Arctic, but that effect is still relatively gradual. The Arctic still presents a very difficult operating environment, particularly for commercial purposes. That change, while it is real and while we are seeing even now a certain amount more of tourism traffic and research vessels, and whatnot, will continue to be gradual, probably throughout my lifetime.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Specifically with the receding ice and and the opening of the Arctic Ocean to navigation in the coming years, you must be starting to put some thought into how we're going to be responding to that and the increased number of resources we may need to look after our sovereignty, to look after the Northwest Passage. Can you provide a bit of context with those specific areas? I know there are some international disagreements over the Northwest Passage.

[Stephen Burt]

Right. Being in the intelligence business, when it comes to resources, my primary area of focus is the resources we would need to monitor and collect on what is happening in these areas. Essentially, I'm interested in accumulating information. The policy issues and procurement issues around what we're going to do about that, once we've identified that something is going on here and have said that we'd like to know more about this or that and there are some gaps that we have in terms of what's going on, it passes on to the various services, the army, navy, and air force, our procurement people, the wider Government of Canada, to make policy decisions around what's the right approach to dealing with those issues. So I'm limited in my ability to comment on what we should do about the Northwest Passage.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

As you said, because roughly 70% of the world's population lives close to a coastal area, the main response for our forces, particularly navy, could be involved in humanitarian efforts due to coastal flooding and tropical storms, and so on.

[Stephen Burt]

I think you see that every year now.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Yes, absolutely.

I'll switch gears. My riding is on Vancouver Island, and I'm very close to CFB Esquimalt. I also have the Coast Guard station near Patricia Bay on the Saanich Peninsula. I was just curious, the Department of National Defence is responsible for managing marine security operations centres. Could you provide an explanation of how that network functions, and how DND contributes to it?

[Stephen Burt]

I can provide you a bit of an explanation of how it functions. The Government of Canada's responsibility for marine security sits with Transport Canada. The DG of marine security at Transport Canada runs the network and convenes the talent to deal with marine security issues, and is responsible for the overarching management around the marine security operations centres.

Within the Department of National Defence, the primary responsibility for maritime surveillance and actions taken as a result of what we might see in that surveillance sits with the Canadian joint operations command. The MSOCs, the marine security operation centres we have—one on the west coast, one in Halifax—are housed on the military bases, but they are multi-agency organizations, managed by Transport Canada and housed by us. The overall marine security portfolio includes 17 different federal departments and agencies with various mandates. There are a lot of players. The MSOCs include Transport and Defence obviously, plus Canada Border Services Agency, the Coast Guard, and the RCMP, just to cover off the various aspects of surveillance and action that you might want to take as a result of that.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I think that's my time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Yes, it is.

Mr. Gerretsen, you have the floor.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Burt, for being here.

Usually we have more than one witness, so you'd have an opportunity to take a breath every once in a while, but we appreciate your being on the hot seat for two hours straight.

I want to return to the questions you were answering from Ms. Romanado, in particular as it relates to information and cyber threats. We've seen recently where state and non-state actors can try to affect the integrity of different nations. I think that the one thing that Canada takes great pride in, and that we're known throughout the world for, is the fact that we are a good player globally, that we want to participate, that we want to genuinely make the world a better place. I think that resonates.

But one of the threats that we've seen, and in particular the example that comes to mind is the accusation that Russia played a role in undermining the integrity of the refugee acceptance into Germany. I'm curious, given the fact that our military is deploying battle group air assets and a frigate into eastern Europe, what threats do you see that might come with that? Should we expect to see similar threats of state or non-state actors participating in, and in particular trying to undermine, the role that Canada is playing there?

[Stephen Burt]

I'm not familiar with the German story. It would be interesting to take a look at that.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I think the accusation was that Russia was purposely trying to suggest that, don't quote me, a Syrian refugee had sexually assaulted somebody in Germany, and the whole idea was to undermine the work that's been done by Germany.

Should we be worried about similar threats of that undermining happening with Canada as we go out into different parts of the world, and in particular now in eastern Europe?

[Stephen Burt]

Russia has been very clear that they see eastern Europe as small, and it is. It's their near abroad and they get as concerned about it—maybe even more concerned—as we would when we see them operating in our near abroad whether it's over the pole or elsewhere. They have publicly stated that they reserve the right to take action when they feel it is getting a bit close to home and it is a bit threatening.

Unfortunately the actions they choose to take are often a bit unsavoury and a bit underhanded, and difficult to attribute, which raises significant uncertainty in terms of who's actually done it in the moment and what the best response to it might be. There's an approach by Russia to the international rule of law that I think is quite corrosive, from a Canadian perspective, in terms of our interest in being part of global system that operates above board and that works for us.

I don't think there's any question as we deploy troops into Latvia and put assets in and around eastern Europe that the Russians will take an interest in that and it will at times be an aggressive interest in undermining the credibility of those efforts and doing so occasionally in a very direct and personal way for individuals who are deployed in those—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

So it would not, for example, be unreasonable for us to perhaps see threats, suggestions that Canadian military personnel are engaging in less-than-desirable activities, promoted by other state actors? Would you agree with that?

[Stephen Burt]

There will no doubt be a steady stream of news stories and public incidents that raise questions about what NATO troops generally are doing in eastern Europe and whether or not they're the kinds of people you would want to have based in your neighbourhood.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

That leads me to the second part of my question, which is what the best practices are to protect against that. How do we protect our reputation? How do we make sure that we're protecting ourselves against these threats?

[Stephen Burt]

You have to do a multi-faceted set of things, and none of them will be perfect. I think there will be a number of things we can do in the intelligence domain to watch for these efforts and to try to guard against them and to warn when they're happening. But a number of things will have to be done by the force generators in army, navy, and air force once those threats have been raised and highlighted, as they have been, to prepare their ships and aircraft and the individual human beings who are actually going to be in those areas to recognize those things when they're starting to happen and to deal with them appropriately. What is happening on the training front, to be honest, in terms of what specific actions we're taking probably involves a level of detail that I can't get into.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Forgive me for saying so and with all due respect, your answer seemed more like you were suggesting what we might do, but are there best practices? Can you at least confirm that there are steps that we would take to work against that kind of thing?

[Stephen Burt]

I think we've seen a fairly consistent track record of activities being employed. I think there are things we can do to prepare our people.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Are we doing things to prepare our people?

[Stephen Burt]

We are doing things to prepare our people.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay.

[Stephen Burt]

Without getting into the specifics of what we are doing, there are things you can do to prepare your people to recognize those events as they take place and to behave appropriately. Whether or not an individual is actually able to do that in the moment is a separate issue.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Have we been tested in that regard?

[Stephen Burt]

I can't get into specific incidents that have happened in the past.