National Defence Committee on Dec. 1st, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I would like to welcome everybody here to our defence committee. We are looking at supplementary estimates (B) for fiscal year 2016-17.

I want to thank the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, for coming today.

There is a whole host of people here to support him. I am not going to run through the lineup, because it's long and we have a limited amount of time, but if you are supporting the minister later on questions, I would ask that you just state your name and what department you are from. That will be helpful for the people who are trying to keep track of what we are doing here.

Minister, thank you for coming. You have the floor.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Yes, I have come with a very large team. As you know, National Defence is just a small organization. It's just to make sure that we can answer all of the questions thoroughly.

I am pleased to be here today to discuss the Department of National Defence's supplementary estimates (B).

Around this time last year, I began the job as Minister of National Defence. It has been a privilege every single day to serve in this role.

My mandate letter from the Prime Minister clearly states that a top priority is to ensure that our women and men in uniform have the equipment they need. The work that we ask them to do is difficult. Supporting our service members requires not only investments into the right equipment and infrastructure, but a dedication and commitment to them and their families as well. Family members trust that we are acting in their loved ones' best interests when we make decisions about resources. I take that trust extremely seriously. The costs to fulfill that trust can fluctuate over time, but I assure you that we are always mindful of our responsibilities as stewards of the public purse when we determine, define, and redefine those costs throughout the year, every year.

Today I would like to do two things. First and foremost, I would like to explain the need for additional funding for the Canadian Armed Forces, its members and missions, but I would also like to paint a picture of DND's commitment and dedication to responsible spending.

Today also represents an opportunity for me to demonstrate how DND is advancing the government's commitments. We continue to build on the government's priorities, and we operate within a whole-of-government construct, working side by side with other departments and agencies in an extremely complex budgetary environment.

I would like to specifically highlight how we are addressing the crisis in Iraq and Syria, investing in infrastructure, protecting the environment, and investing in the Royal Canadian Navy. Allow me to begin with the big picture and the Department of National Defence's supplementary estimates (B).

In total, the department has requested new funding of $257.8 million. Once we account for transfers to other departments, DND's total budgetary authority for the fiscal year becomes $19.3 billion. As I will explain, the additional funds being requested are primarily investments toward defence infrastructure, environmental remediation, and support for expeditionary operations.

On that note, I will start with the largest of the items, and that is the additional funding needed for Operation Impact. This operation is our military contribution to the international coalition that is fighting Daesh in Iraq and Syria. We refocused and enhanced our contribution to the mission earlier this year in reaction to an evolved situation on the ground. The Canadian Armed Forces continue to conduct air operations using Polaris aerial refuellers and Aurora reconnaissance aircraft. A detachment of up to four Griffon helicopters has been added and is supporting the transportation of personnel and equipment. It has also become increasingly clear that a combination of security, diplomacy, humanitarian assistance, and development is required to counter the threat posed by Daesh. We have placed additional emphasis on advising and assisting Iraqi security forces in their efforts to dismantle and defeat this threat. Additional military resources were also dedicated to supporting the coalition with intelligence and headquarters personnel.

Through the supplementary estimates (B), the Department of National Defence has requested $147.1 million in additional funding for Operation Impact for 2016-17. This money will be used primarily for regular and reserve force members' salaries and benefits, as well as for vehicles and other equipment that directly supports Canada's success in Operation Impact and our commitment to help the Iraqi security forces defeat Daesh.

Our commitment to the success of our troops on missions abroad is clear, but so is our commitment to our service members as they live, train, and work back here at home.

The second largest category of additional funding we are seeking today is defence infrastructure. DND has the largest and most complex real property portfolio in the federal government. It is responsible for approximately 20,000 buildings and approximately 2.2 million hectares of land, which is roughly four times the size of Prince Edward Island. We are requesting an additional $36.4 million to help maintain and upgrade federal infrastructure assets. That infrastructure is of critical importance for our women and men in uniform, so we have a great responsibility to maintain and improve it. I can't emphasize enough how investing in infrastructure is an investment in good jobs for civilians in communities across Canada.

The funds requested in this item will be used in several ways. We will finance projects such as defence infrastructure in the north. We will repair airfield hangars, jetties, and other infrastructure at our wings and bases in the rest of Canada.

Eventually though, when real estate is no longer of strategic value, it then needs to be sold or disposed of. For that reason, DND is also seeking to reinvest $19.5 million from the sales and transfers of defence properties. Strategic real property disposals are another way that DND is supporting the government's commitment to improving military infrastructure across the country.

Building and maintaining infrastructure is important to us for all the reasons I've talked about, but caring for the environment as we do that is equally important. The Government of Canada, including National Defence, is committed to protecting the environment. We always aim to be responsible in the way we assess, manage, and remediate federal contaminated sites.

That is why we have requested $22.1 million from phase three of the federal contaminated sites action plan. With these funds, we hope to reduce DND's contaminated sites liability and minimize environmental and human health risks. The remediation projects taking place in Esquimalt harbour in British Columbia, and at 5 Wing Goose Bay in Newfoundland, are at the top of the list to receive this funding. The department will continue to address environmental legacy issues and invest heavily in the decontamination of these sites.

I would like to move from land to sea now. We know that the government is committed to strengthening the Royal Canadian Navy. It is no secret that the navy needs an at-sea supply capability as soon as possible. The contract in place to develop an interim solution will fill the gap until the more robust joint support ships enter into service in 2021-22. The interim auxiliary oiler replenishment ship will also provide capabilities such as at-sea oiler replenishment, aviation support, humanitarian assistance, or disaster relief.

DND is requesting an additional $22 million for pre-delivery service payments related to this contract. This request supports DND's mandate and commitment to working with Public Service and Procurement Canada to strengthen the navy, and it will help grow the economy and create jobs at the same time.

Today's estimates also include additional funding for other lower-cost items. These include the improvement of security for military operations and personnel, smaller projects on bases and properties, and reinvestments of intellectual property royalties as well.

As I mentioned earlier, the overall estimates also include transfers to and from other government organizations. The most significant transfer is $5.9 million to the Communications Security Establishment for their support to military operations, all of which again directly support the priorities of both the Government of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I hope I have painted a picture of our commitment, a commitment to Canadians, a commitment to responsible spending, and a commitment to the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces. Our support for them is always unwavering. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us today about the additional funds we need to support them in the work they do.

I will now gladly take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Simply to aid in how to set the tone here, the minister has another commitment following this meeting. Sir, I'd like you to stay as long as you possibly can, but to get through this, we're going to need an hour through the formal questions. I'd like everyone to get a turn. If anyone can hear this, please wrap it up in 10 seconds, and that includes the people answering the question. This will enable us to get on to the next question, and then everyone will get a chance. Please keep your comments, as best as you can, focused on what we are talking about here, which is supplementary estimates (B) for 2016-17.

Having said that, Mr. Spengemann, you have the floor.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Good morning, Minister Sajjan. It's nice to have you here. I'd like to thank you and your assembled team for your important work and your service to our nation.

I would like to start by asking about Operation Impact, our effort in Iraq and Syria. It's a topic of great interest to me. I've spent a significant amount of time on the ground in Iraq. More importantly, it's a topic of interest to all members of this committee and increasingly to residents of our constituencies. In Mississauga—Lakeshore, my riding, people ask me quite regularly for updates on the effort that our women and men are engaged in on the ground.

I must say that I'm quite proud of the work that Canada is doing to help Iraq and Syria find their way forward, and equally important, to help those people who are displaced by this prolonged conflict. There's an overall commitment of $375 million, and that includes the Global Affairs component, and our component for DND is just over $140 million.

I'm wondering, Minister, if you could start by giving us an update on how things are going at the moment on the ground in Iraq and Syria, how Operation Impact is unfolding.

I have a few more specific questions after that as well.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely. Thank you for the question.

When we looked at the situation in Iraq before deciding on what type of capabilities and assets to put in, we took a very thorough approach, not towards the fight at that time, but towards what it was going to look like in the coming year, which is now. The direct request was on intelligence assets and trainers, not just any type of trainers but people specific to the ethnic breakdown and complexity of Iraq.

First of all, the intelligence components we put in weren't just about doubling the capacity. It was about putting in the right type of intelligence and getting a fusion centre in place that's going to allow for the intel to be put into proper packages that go through a very rigorous process. That process has gone extremely well and has allowed the coalition commander a much-needed intelligence capability for decision-making and targeting.

The other aspect is the training. It is critical that the right type of groups are trained at the right time. As the other cities were being taken earlier in the year, there was a lot of work we needed to do with our allies in training for the north. You can see the fruits of that labour now. As we're now about to liberate Mosul, having those right groups was critical in making sure that no additional tensions were created.

That leads me to the ministerial liaison team. That whole-of-government approach that we were trying to take is having a tremendous impact. The ministerial liaison team is led by a Canadian general. Working directly with Iraq's ministries of defence and interior has allowed for the sequencing and some of the situation awareness to go very well. Keep in mind, a military solution is just one aspect of things and a lot of other work has gone on behind the scenes. The political situation is equally important. The work that my colleagues have done not just in Iraq itself, but in the region has had an impact. Now we need to work very hard to make sure we achieve not just the liberation of Mosul, but also the political aspect of stability.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, it's fair to say and from your comments that as the scenario evolves the relationships on the ground, be they military, political, or within the broader civil society in Iraq and Syria, are absolutely critical and we're deeply engaged in building those relationships.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely, and that is essential for anything that we do around the world. Building those relationships and having the ability to have a much deeper understanding is allowing us to have the success in the north we see today.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, I'd like to ask you a question about our air assets involved in Operation Impact, particularly the Griffon helicopters and also the Auroras. Can you make some comments on that?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When we put the Griffon helicopters in, we wanted to make sure our troops had all the necessary resources. The movement of personnel and equipment is essential. It saves a considerable amount of time and, from a force protection aspect, it is absolutely critical that our troops don't have to use the road that often. Even though there haven't been many significant IED threats, we don't want to be taking any risks with that, and we're just making sure that our troops have the resources.

Our air assets, like the Aurora, have been doing great work from day one. Actually, I want to highlight the air refueller. We have received significant kudos because of the reliability of our air refueller. When it comes to very important missions, I was told that they usually come to Canada because of the reliability of our air refuellers.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, on a different track, how important is the role 2 hospital in our efforts in Operation Impact?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When we looked at the situation, as I had my regular counter-ISIL meetings with the key contributing nations, 13 of us, we always assessed the situation and made adjustments. There was a direct need to put in some medical personnel, and that's the reason we took this role on. We have tremendous ability for it and having a role 2 capability with our personnel for a certain time has eased the burden on the coalition.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

On the force protection side, I note there's a $6-million request for funding specifically for the area of force protection, and there's also an effort to work with NATO on counter-IED measures. To what extent are those funds going to be applied to Operation Impact and that effort with NATO to reduce the potential harm from IEDs?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to missions, all of those assessments are always done way in advance and making sure we have all the right tools. Regardless of where we go, those threat assessments are done, but I can have the vice-admiral talk to the direct aspects of those things.

[VAdm Mark Norman, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence]

I apologize to you. I'm unable to answer the specifics of where that money is going to be spent in the context of the mission, but I will take that on notice and get you an answer as soon as I can.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

It's fair to say then that force protection is definitely an aspect of Operation Impact.

[VAdm Mark Norman]

Absolutely. What specifically that line item is being allocated to, I can't say, but unquestionably, as the minister has indicated, everything we do has a robust force protection element to it. That is at the individual level and also at the operational level in how we ensure that the components that are there can look after each other.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I think that's—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll talk about the security pieces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Minister, we're going to have to move on to Mr. Bezan for the next question.

Mr. Bezan, you have the floor.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Minister and officials, for joining us today.

The first question I want to ask relates to Operation Impact. I sent you a letter, Minister Sajjan, on November 10, about some of our troops that are based in the air task force in Kuwait. We have 300-plus troops there, and 15 of them are at a U.S. air base, Camp Arifjan. They are not getting the same danger pay or income tax considerations as the rest of our troops in Kuwait.

Are you committed to fixing this inequity and making sure that they get the same pay and benefits as all of our other troops who are in Operation Impact?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely. There were even some additional challenges when I first came in and then when I first visited. We were able to address some of the direct things that were under my authority and also with getting the support of the Minister of Finance. For the specific ones that you're talking about, there is some work that the military has to do with Treasury Board as well, but we are working through the complexities based on how this is done to make sure there is more equity for our troops when it comes to deployments.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll look forward to having that rectified.

In your opening remarks, you make the commitment to responsible spending, and in the supplementary estimates there is $3 million going to the defence procurement strategy. Is that money being used for the replacement of the CF-18 fleet, and is the sole sourcing of the Super Hornets responsible spending?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll take the latter portion of the question on the Super Hornets first, and then have the deputy minister answer the more detailed questions.

I can assure you that we looked at all aspects of the fighter replacement. We looked at what we needed to do, where the risks were, what the timelines looked like, and how transition was going to go for the personnel. We are committed to replacing the entire fleet with an open competition, and that's going to be starting once the defence policy is released early next year.

We are committed to investing in the current fleet to make sure that we have the right capability, but I don't want to take any chances or risk of not meeting our commitments, and the capability gap that we have talked about extensively is real. This is going to cost more, and to me the investment into the air force on the interim 18 Super Hornets, which the Minister of Public Services and Procurement will start discussions with Boeing on, is absolutely essential to making sure that we have all the right tools for our Canadian Armed Forces.

The DM can answer the other question.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I only have so much time. On the Super Hornets, how much are they going to cost?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

The costing of it will only be determined once the discussion has started. It's too premature to be able to give you an exact number just yet. Based on the work that we have done, we have a rough idea, but we want to make sure the negotiations can happen properly so that we can get the best deal for Canada, get the best equipment, and get the right benefits for us, as well.