National Defence Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2017

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

True, but the actual science done on mefloquine to start off with was poor science, because the medication was given out initially without.... It was put in as an experiment, and the experimental procedures were not followed when it was sent out initially. It was not recognized as a medication when it was first given to our troops. Then, over time, the procedures that were supposed to be followed were not followed, so you couldn't perform a proper study on it because you didn't follow the protocols. Any researcher would have thrown that study out of the window.

[BGen Hugh MacKay]

Mefloquine, when it was used—I presume you're referring to the Somalia time frame—had been licensed and met the safety and effectiveness requirements of numerous regulatory bodies in many other countries, and in fact it was licensed shortly after the start of the Somalia deployment within Canada, meaning that it met the safety and effectiveness requirements of Canadian regulatory authorities.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Sir, if we use the argument, then, that other countries used it and their studies were good and therefore we could use it, likewise surely we could use the studies from other countries that are now not using it to say that we shouldn't be using it with our troops.

[BGen Hugh MacKay]

I'm not aware of what studies, other than inquiries, are being used as evidence not to use it.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Germany and the U.S. have stopped using it with their forces. We should be considering that, or at least looking at it to investigate the potential. Do you not agree?

[BGen Hugh MacKay]

I am in the process of reviewing the report that I received to make a policy recommendation. I will say, though, that I haven't been told by the U.S. which study they used to base their policy decision on, nor have I been told by the Germans which studies they used to base their policy decision on. I would be interested to know which studies they used to do that. I do have contact with those organizations and have had discussions with them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The last question is going to go to Mr. Fisher.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair; and thanks again, gentlemen.

I'm going to go to a little happier topic. It's about some of the things you're trying to do to create some success.

You talked about telemental health and about virtual reality systems. It brought it back to my memory when you talked about apps.

Could you touch on your telemental health and virtual reality systems?

[BGen Hugh MacKay]

Telemental health is a system that we put in place a couple of years ago. It enables clinicians to remotely provide care to mental health patients.

We always have another health care provider on location with the patient who is receiving care so that should they develop some issues as a result of the therapy they undergo—because sometimes that kind of exposure therapy makes them relive some of the traumas they experienced that have caused their illness—we have somebody there with them. It provides a method of delivering care when we can't have a mental health care provider geographically located with the patient.

It's well received by patients. The clinicians have a little harder time doing it because they feel that they need to have that face-to-face contact, but once they've done it for a while, they enjoy it.

In terms of virtual reality, we have a couple of different programs that we're looking at. We have a small system, a headgear that helps replicate the kinds of things that people are exposed to when they're on operations, but we also have a larger system that we're using, and we're in collaboration with the Dutch on a study to look at a different way to use virtual reality to treat patients with post-traumatic stress disorder that is starting to show some success. We're anxiously awaiting further results from that study.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Both of these programs, including the apps, would be for uniformed members, not for veterans at the moment. Are some of those things being looked at for veterans as well, the virtual reality and telemental health?

I'll end with one final question: is there a text message component to the telemental health?

[Col Andrew Downes]

Just to be clear, the telemental health is a connection between clinics. An individual goes into a clinic at one base and then can be cared for—

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I thought it was phone-based mental health?

[Col Andrew Downes]

No, it's not that.

Regarding your question about virtual reality, I'm not 100% sure if the Veterans Affairs OSI clinics have those in place, but there's no reason they couldn't. I think they, in fact, might.

We do communicate regularly with Veterans Affairs clinical personnel and we are looking for opportunities to do joint research with them. In fact, they would be certainly welcome to participate in our study at the rehab hospital where we have one of these virtual reality systems that General MacKay was talking about.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

Is there a minute left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

No, there's not.

Gentlemen, thank you for coming to talk to us about this very important topic, and thank you for your service.

I'm going to suspend so we can resume with committee business.

[Proceedings continue in camera]