Evidence of meeting #39 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mefloquine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Hugh MacKay  Surgeon General, Commander, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence
Andrew Downes  Director, Mental Health, Department of National Defence

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

It's also sometimes as a result of mental health issues, and therefore the defence of that individual through the judicial process might not necessarily be well versed in the mental health aspects that may have influenced that incident or that charge, such as AWOL, being laid. Someone with a bipolar disorder or depression or something might be AWOL and then charged with AWOL, and yet that person needs some help in the defence.

What's the connection between the mental health providers and the military structure in being able to provide advice in that defence?

4:40 p.m.

BGen Hugh MacKay

I see what you're saying. Okay.

We are available to advise, and we do advise, assisting officers and the JAG officers as they consider cases against military members. Often, though, the types of triggers that we are talking about occur in the civilian legal system, so we're less able to influence what's going on there, although our military police do work closely with the civilian police forces in order to help us with that handoff process and with understanding what's going on.

Andrew, did you have—

4:40 p.m.

Col Andrew Downes

I'll just add that in the last year we've rolled out a road to mental readiness program for military police, as I mentioned earlier. A significant part of that is how to deal with people with mental health issues and how to police people in crisis.

I'm not aware of a similar program in other police forces in Canada, so I feel that we are leading the way in that area because we do recognize that this can be an important issue.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Brilliant. Thank you.

I'd like to give the rest of my time to Mr. Rioux.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Rioux Liberal Saint-Jean, QC

Thank you.

Earlier, we talked about the transition from civilian life to military life. I am most interested in the recruits and those enrolling in military college. We hear about suicides and, often, we hear about the cases that get most media attention. Before people are admitted as recruits or officers, do they have to undergo tests in order to detect their state of mental health?

Mr. MacKay, I have two or three questions for you and I will ask them all together.

Once people have been admitted, is it possible to detect suicidal thoughts in any of them? Do you have a system that allows you to detect who those people are? Is it possible that the training is too demanding and there may be effects because of it? We have talked a lot about statistics on recruits and it seems that you do not have data about them. Would it be possible to get more precise statistics on the recruits and the people going into military college? Can more attention be given to this part of the military?

4:45 p.m.

BGen Hugh MacKay

Recruits and personnel going to Royal Military College go through the same screening process before they come in. It helps us know whether they've had a history of mental illness.

Part of the reason we have undertaken this road to mental readiness training is to ensure that staff at Royal Military College and their colleagues would be in a position to recognize symptoms of mental illness. From a health services perspective it's very difficult for us to see people and identify that they have mental illness. We need them to come forward and reveal to us what they are suffering from and the symptoms they may have for us to be able to identify if they have mental illness.

With respect to statistics, the number of suicides in recruits is very small. It would be very difficult, based on the numbers we have for those recruits, to be able to make much in the way of conclusions from a statistical perspective.

4:45 p.m.

Col Andrew Downes

Screening is not 100% accurate. It's based on a questionnaire. We ask people questions and how they respond isn't always 100% truthful. Sometimes they minimize things, and so on.

Another thing is that somebody could be fine today, but at the end of the week their relationship is falling apart and they've got into trouble, and things could happen. They're good one day, but a few days later they might not be.

We have to be very careful to understand the limitations of screening. We do it and we believe it's important, but we cannot rely on it as our only defence mechanism. This is why we spend so much time on education. It's so that people come forward for care when they need it, because we can't screen people every day.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

I'll give the floor to Ms. Gallant.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you.

In listening to the discussion, I understand that debt is one of the issues that causes suicide or can be a contributing factor. I see some people here from the veterans affairs committee. You had a Dr. Donald Passey, a psychiatrist, testify. He'd be the one who wrote a letter to the Somalia inquiry asking to testify, to inform the inquiry as well as members of the government and the Canadian Forces medical systems about the effects of mefloquine and his thoughts that it was affecting the Canadian Airborne Regiment members and their behaviour in Somalia up to and including the death of Shidane Arone. About a week later, the Somalia inquiry ended abruptly. An election was called. The Airborne Regiment was disbanded.

In any case, that's the background with Dr. Donald Passey, and he testified in committee that in addition to debt, the denial of claims has a huge impact and increases suicidal risk in veterans.

Earlier, Mr. Chairman, in answering my question about whether or not there would be anything preventing the clinicians from using the clinicians' reports to adjudicate a pension, the surgeon general said that clinicians do not attribute causal relationships to service. The military ombudsman also identified this, and he made a recommendation stating that he should be determining service attribution for medically releasing members. He recommended that the Canadian Armed Forces determine whether an illness or injury is caused or aggravated by that member's military service and that the Canadian Armed Forces determination be presumed by VAC to be sufficient evidence to support an application for benefits so that they don't have to go through everything in duplication and all the hardships that entails.

That being the case, on November 15 I tabled the motion that the Government of Canada immediately begin to take the measures necessary for the full implementation of all recommendations in the two reports of the National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman that were tabled in 2016 and “that the Government implement all of [those] recommendations as the best way forward to support Canadian Armed Forces members and veterans, particularly those in transition” and that the office of the ombudsman provide a progress report to the committee on a monthly basis.

It would seem that everybody wants to do the right thing by our soldiers and veterans, so since we are on the topic, I would like to get the chair to call a vote to agree to that motion and push it forward so we can go forward. We learn in the news, sometimes on a weekly basis, of different suicides and suicide attempts. To stem these tragedies from happening, let's get on with this now so that the government can do its work and the surgeon general and his clinicians...and adjudications can be used to help them along their way in financial instances, so we'll resume debate of the motion.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

All right. Let me have a look really quickly at the motion you had originally.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Leona Alleslev Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

I think we should move to adjourn debate so we can continue with our witnesses.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

It won't take very long just to....

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Well, it's dilatory, so I'm going to have to call for a vote on it.

All in favour of adjourning debate on this?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Can we have a recorded vote, please?

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

No problem.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Mr. Chair, I guess before I can vote on this, I need to be clear on the motion.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Yes. Nothing's been presented to us.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Well, the motion has been previously presented to the committee. The member has made reference to it.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

There have been lines changed before in the past.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

No, there's no change.

4:50 p.m.

A voice

There was an amended one.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Before I can vote and we shut off debate and return to this, I need to know what we're voting on.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Here's how we're going to handle it. I'll let you read it, Mr. Garrison, so you're clear.

There was a motion to resume the debate, and there was a motion to adjourn debate, so that's where we're at. There was a call for a recorded vote. When the clerk is ready, we will vote on adjourning debate on the issue.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr

Okay, we're going to debate this later. Basically, we've moved to adjourn debate.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

It has been three months.