Evidence of meeting #41 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was review.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Absolutely. This agency has all sorts of experts.
When our own experts meet with them, they have discussions among experts. For example, if we send one of our expert investigators, the expert investigator will go see the analyst. The investigator will ask the analyst to explain what he's doing and to show him certain things.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
You're comfortable saying that Canada is well organized and has the necessary skills.
Also, we've learned that the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness wants to review the Anti-terrorism Act, 2015 and amend certain parts of it. If the act is amended, will CSE's capacities be reduced? It would have a negative impact on Canada's security.
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
That's a hypothetical question. I apologize again, but I haven't seen the desired amendments.
To answer your question as I understood it, the final goal is to ensure a balance between the security of Canadians and the protection of privacy. This is no easy task, but a balance must be maintained. If too much focus is placed on protecting privacy and security is neglected, that's not good. The opposite is also true.
When it comes to CSE, for example, I can say that I'm trying to maintain the balance.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
You're the watchdog of this side of things.
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Yes.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
At this time, if the government makes amendments and you determine that the amendments may affect security by reducing capacities, you'll report this to the government or the opposition. Isn't that your job?
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Yes, when it comes to CSE.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Ultimately, CSE is a secret agency. We can't ask any questions about the agency's work. However, you're here to tell us whether you can verify that, as a whole, Canada and Canadians are well protected, because the agency's members can't talk. Without revealing any secrets, can you confirm whether things are going well?
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Yes, but you must know that I don't have the mandate to assess the agency's performance. Normally, an inspector general does this. For example, in the United States, this role exists.
I also think that SIRC, which looks after CSIS, is supposed to review performance. I don't have this mandate. I don't assess CSE's performance, as such.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
It's more a matter of legislation, to see whether security—
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Yes, of course. My role is to say whether the activities comply with the law and whether they adequately protect the privacy of Canadians. No Canadian wants to be spied on.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Of course.
There was talk of international operations. We'll be sending troops to Latvia, and we'll likely send CSE elements and other elements with the Canadian Forces communications. One of the threats in Latvia will be cyber attacks. Is Canadian law applicable during foreign operations? Or does another international law govern how CSE operates?
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
CSE is governed by part V.1 of the National Defence Act.
Conservative
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Yes. However, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, CSE is a technology agency that operates abroad. Other security agencies, such as the police, may occasionally ask for CSE's help. That's also part of CSE's mandate. CSIS, in particular, can ask for CSE's help if it's spying on someone abroad but doesn't have the necessary technology. CSE will agree to help, but only if the agency is legally authorized to act. If that's the case, CSE will assist CSIS.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
I'm going to stay on a line of questioning that's already been brought up by Mr. Garrison and Ms. Gallant. In 2013-14, your predecessor had made note that the CSE did not have a way to determine absolutely that the other Five Eyes organizations were keeping their promise to protect Canadian data.
You talked about the golden rule that no one in the Five Eyes will spy on each other's people. Do you feel there have been some improvements since that comment was made in a report by your predecessor? Are there checks and balances now in place, or were they always in place and he just wasn't aware of them and wasn't able to guarantee they were there?
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
You're talking about my predecessor. Are you referring to Mr. Robert Décary?
Executive Director, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
Rather than stating whether or not there have been improvements, the reviews we conduct on CSE's relationship with its partners look at it from the Canadian perspective and Canadian laws. The agreement is that the Five Eyes partners will respect the laws of the country in terms of privacy.
Two years ago Commissioner Plouffe, following up on a review of the signals intelligence sharing CSE does with the National Security Agency, travelled to Washington and met with his counterpart the inspector general of the NSA to seek assurances that indeed the NSA was protecting Canadians' privacy as per agreements.
As Commissioner Plouffe mentioned earlier, we're talking about sovereign nations and there is no way to be able to force that. The inspector general has a similar role, has a much broader role, in fact, than the CSE commissioner, but part of that role is similar in terms of complying with the laws of the United States and seeking assurance that Canadian privacy was protected. Any action that would be done with that information would be preceded with a request. It would have to go back to CSE before they would be able to do anything with that information.
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
In passing, I do meet occasionally with my Five Eyes counterparts. We had a meeting last year in Washington. This year it's in Ottawa in September. All the watchdogs meet and we discuss all kinds of problems. Therefore, you know—
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
The question you're raising is discussed among us.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Yes, but essentially there's no official check or balance. There's a trust component. You spoke about NSA and that's one of the other Five Eyes. I assume you mean you've had conversations with your counterparts, all of the Five Eyes, or the other four.
Essentially, we just have to trust that the data is—
Commissioner, Office of the Communications Security Establishment Commissioner
There are arrangements, or MOUs, between the Five Eyes. I know that an MOU is an MOU, and it's an arrangement. It's not a contract as such. It's like a gentlemen's agreement, if I may use the expression. But still, it's there. Like you say, it's based on public trust.
