Going back to the question that was raised about Minsk—because this is all related to Minsk as well—in my power point slides, which I sent this morning and which I think the committee has, the second-last slide is all about Minsk. When people say there's no alternative to Minsk, the problem is that nothing of Minsk has been implemented, and Russia, the west, and Ukraine have very different ideas of the steps that need to be taken.
The Russian proposal is to go first with political changes/political reforms and then with security. The west and Ukraine say security first, and then political reforms. That's because Russia doesn't want to incorporate the Donbass of eastern Ukraine into Russia. It wants to use this region as a leverage point vis-à-vis Kiev to give it some kind of veto power over Ukraine's domestic and foreign policy in a kind of balkanization of Ukraine.
When you say there's no alternative to Minsk, well, nothing had been implemented on Minsk. Between Minsk I and Minsk II, i.e., 2014 to 2015, Putin, during this immense process, built up the various militia groups into one of Europe's largest armies. Today, the separatists, or Russian proxy forces, number 35,000. With Russian forces of 5,000, that's 40,000. That's bigger than half of the armies in NATO.
The problem with the peacekeeping operation is that in Ukraine there's zero trust, not surprisingly, with Putin. It's not just because of what's happened in Ukraine; it's also because of—let's remember—Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and elsewhere in the former U.S.S.R. Russia has been doing this kind of thing in the past, where it's created a conflict and frozen it in its favour with its own peacekeeping forces. Ukraine would never accept Russian soldiers as part of that peacekeeping force. As Dr. Luciuk said, the peacekeepers should be on the Ukraine-Russia border, not on the ceasefire line.
The most important goal for Putin here in proposing this is to be seen as a peacemaker and therefore to get Europe to drop its sanctions against Russia. That's his goal. We shouldn't allow him to get away with this, because he has no real interest in peace.
Thank you.