Mr. Garrison.
Evidence of meeting #61 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukrainian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #61 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ukrainian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back to the question of Ukraine's arms exports. We know that President Poroshenko announced in 2015 that he wanted to make Ukraine one of the top five arms exporters in the world. In 2016 they achieved I think it was 11th position. Certainly, when you look at who they sell arms to, it's not always countries that would be high on the human rights list, like Ethiopia, Nigeria, Uganda. In fact, it appears that the largest amount of Ukrainian military goods are actually continuing to go to Russia through third party deals, despite the official boycott of sales to Russia.
I'm going to ask Ambassador Mason, with the largest experience in disarmament, again, about the question of end use. If the decision were made to sell lethal weapons to Ukraine, what guarantees do we have that these would not be exported or their substitutes exported to other countries around the world?
5:05 p.m.
President, Rideau Institute on International Affairs
First, of course, I would note that the information that the majority of the goods are ending up in Russia really underscores the hard economic reality in the fact that there's an interrelationship that cannot be denied. In fact, that's what the Minsk agreement recognizes.
I also want to go back to the point about where the UN peacekeepers should be deployed. Of course, it's up to the parties to determine that in the negotiations over the mandate, but if the proposal that both sides have accepted is that the UN peacekeepers would be in support of the Minsk agreement, if the UN peacekeepers are in support of the Minsk agreement, then they have to be able to verify the Minsk agreement. Therefore, they have to be able to verify whether the ceasefire is holding. Therefore, they have to be able to monitor the line of separation. This is UN peacekeeping 101.
To come back to your question about the end-user certificate, that really ties back in with the question about governance and about how Canada can help in terms of strengthening the capacity of Ukraine because that would be required. It takes a pretty sophisticated system to ensure that there isn't leakage and that there isn't diversion. I don't think Ukraine is anywhere near there yet. That would be a capacity that would have to be built up over time and that we could help with.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Professor Luciuk and Professor Kuzio, what about this allegation that the main buyer of Ukrainian arms is still Russia, despite the official boycott?
5:10 p.m.
Non-Resident Fellow, Centre for Transatlantic Relations, Johns Hopkins University, As an Individual
It's not true.
5:10 p.m.
Professor, Royal Military College of Canada, Department of Political Science, As an Individual
I don't think it is actually still true. There was a period when Ukraine was, yes, exporting arms to the Russian Federation because of the natural, long-lasting relationship that had been built up in the Soviet period and continued post-1991. I'm going to defer to Professor Kuzio on this because I know he has studied that subject more than I have, but my recollection is that it is no longer the case.
5:10 p.m.
Non-Resident Fellow, Centre for Transatlantic Relations, Johns Hopkins University, As an Individual
There was never an export of arms from Ukraine to Russia. There was co-operation between different branches of military industrial complexes. Ukraine produced some parts; Russia produced other parts. That, together with a lot of other aspects of Russia-Ukraine trade, ended two years ago at least. The idea that Ukraine is somehow exporting military goods, first, it would be a new thing for them to do that—they never did—and that's certainly not happening. I could go back to the question of North Korea. I'm happy to send the committee documents to show that was a completely biased and untruthful article in the New York Times that set this off, based on some research by a London-based think tank, and this was completely disproved. So, the North Korean angle....
With regard to the question of arms from Ukraine going to countries with bad human rights records, as Dr. Luciuk says, most western countries do that, including my own Great Britain.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Given that I'll need a few minutes to prepare the room for an in camera portion of the meeting, I want to thank all of you for your testimony today.
This conversation is really important as we can sit here and talk about the truth and reality of what's happening in Ukraine. We will also debate about what are our best efforts going forward. There's some disagreement there, but we'll work through that. I'm sure we'll come together on some good recommendations to the Government of Canada.
Thank you very much for coming. We are very proud of our relationship with Ukraine, and we stand proudly with them as our allies.
I'll suspend now for the departure of our guests.
[Proceedings continue in camera]