Evidence of meeting #63 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I'm just curious. You're the chairman of Silver Bear Resources. What is Silver Bear Resources? Where is the majority of your mining or exploration taking place?
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
Silver Bear Resources is a public company listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange that is building a silver mine in Yakutia in Russian Siberia.
I've been on the board of Silver Bear for eight years, since a year after I retired, and I now chair the board of Silver Bear.
As well, I have been on the board of a company called Black Iron. I'm no longer on that board, but it was a company that was trying to build an iron ore mine in Ukraine.
I've sustained those board memberships and one or two others, and I've remained active in CERBA.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay, thank you.
You heard there were 13 Canadians sanctioned, basically banned by Putin from going to Russia. Were you outraged at that point in time when that came about?
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
I think that was a tit-for-tat sanction. I wasn't particularly outraged any more than being skeptical about the impact of these sanctions. The impact of sanctions on Russia—
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
You criticize us for the Magnitsky Act, which you say has no legitimacy and has no due process. Mr. Bezan had no due process when his name was put on that list, yet it was on that list.
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
That's what I'm objecting to in these sanctions. They haven't changed our policy and they haven't changed Russia's policy. There are countless sanctions now against Russia. They've been going on from the United States for decades.
Former Canadian Ambassador to Ukraine and Russia, As an Individual
I don't think sanctions are effective policy. If you look at what our sanctions against Russia were supposed to achieve, if we just stop and remember that, first of all—
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Just a second, Mr. Westdal. I have only seven minutes, and I'd like to get on with all my questions, if you don't mind.
I asked you about the 13 Canadians. You made your comments, and I said that's why you've seen the Magnitsky Act come forward, because we feel that it's important that you hit the oligarchs in Russia that feel the pain, that just can't go on and plunder the resources in Russia and then travel about the world as freely as who cares. I think that applies here and has a tremendous political impact on Putin and what he does and how he does things.
Now I'm going to move to Mr. Grod.
You talked about the stage being set. There was no civil war. The stage was set. This was hybrid war. What were some of the things that Russia did that made you believe it was Russia that created the stage for hybrid war?
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
First of all, the whole Maidan revolution was, to Mr. Westdal's point, poking the Russian bear, so to speak. The Ukrainian people won't live in a world where they are part of somebody else's sphere of influence. The Ukrainian people are very independent-minded and have fought for independence against Russia for over 300 years.
When you look at Ukraine today, it is one of the only beacons in the former Soviet Union of democracy and rule of law. Yes, it has had its challenges, absolutely, and that's what a fledgling economy or democracy is going through.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
All right, but back to my question, how did they set the stage? What did they do that upset people in Ukraine, or are these foreigners coming in and undermining the people who were there? Give me some appreciation of what happened to make this boil.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Do you mean leading up to the Maidan or the Revolution of Dignity?
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Go right from the start.
You've said that they set the stage for a civil war, but there wasn't a civil war. What did you mean by that?
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
When the president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych, fled the country after the killing of 100 peaceful protesters on the Maidan in Kiev, Ukraine, he realized he had overstepped the bounds, and he had nowhere else to go but to flee to Russia.
At that point, Russia implemented their plan because they knew a new western-focused power would take over in Ukraine. They realized they couldn't control the political movements and the leadership any longer, and that's why they decided to destabilize the country.
At that point, when Ukraine was at its weakest—they didn't have a president, but had an acting president; they had no military—it essentially allowed the Russian-led operatives, because these were all—and this is public information, who these people were. They were Russian citizens, former Russian intelligence and army officers—they were the ones who led these so-called Donetsk People's Republic and Luhansk People's Republic. They led those aggressive, forceful, military takeovers of those parliaments.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
It had to be coordinated by somebody to make this happen. They didn't just have one here and one there.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
When you look at how these bands of supposed separatists were able to take over a Buk missile system, were able to get their hands on the most sophisticated Russian military equipment to shoot down flight MH17 because they had mistaken it for a Ukrainian military plane, and you have hundreds of high-tech tanks in Ukraine, it's very clear that this is financed and organized by the Russian Federation.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Can you take us through the whole process? You have Ukraine moving forward. You talked about having a strong resistance to defend yourself. You talked about peacekeepers.
What can we do? I know we had RADARSAT, for example. Do you think that should be re-established? Are there any other things we should do? Is there anything on the cyber side of things we should be doing? I'm just looking for ideas, not just the conventional guns and armaments, but other things.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I see my time is up, but essentially I think Canada's moving in the right direction.
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
I'd like to get invited back one day so I'll....
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
There might be more time. I have a sneaking suspicion we'll be able to go to other questions and we might be able to circle back on that one.
In the meantime, I'm going to give the floor to Mr. Garrison.
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both our witnesses for being here today.
I'm one of those who believes that if we're going to contribute to Ukraine's security, then we need to strengthen Canada's relationship based on shared values.
Mr. Grod, what kind of work, if any, has the Ukrainian Canadian Congress been doing to help strengthen civil society in Ukraine?
National President, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
We have been working together with our member organizations on various levels.
Number one is to strengthen the whole infrastructure, because things like health care reform and support for humanitarian initiatives have been a key priority for us to help the Ukrainian people get through this time of crisis. Number one has been humanitarian.
Number two, we're working with many reform-focused NGOs in Ukraine, and helping them improve their sophistication, their knowledge, and their ability to help promote change and reforms in Ukraine. It can't be just one person, the president of Ukraine, doing everything and reforming everything. It's a process; it's politics, just as it is in Canada or anywhere else in the world. You have various interests so we're trying to help those reform NGOs to move those agenda items forward.
We were very active in helping to promote the new health care reforms that were just passed in parliament a day or two ago. We're making a constant effort.
The other thing is also encouraging and working with those NGOs which currently have projects in Ukraine on judicial reform, on reform of the judiciary, police reform, and encouraging decentralization of government, which is very beneficial for Ukraine.
What's troubling, Mr. Garrison, is we've been given an indication from the Minister of International Development that no more funding is foreseeable for Ukraine in international technical assistance. The programs that have been funded, which expire in 2018-19, see no sign of further funding. That's very troubling because for a paltry $50 million a year, Canada has been doing tremendous work in supporting Ukraine's reforms, and that's really important because we want to see Ukraine be a success.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I think you've seen everybody around the table take note of that one, and we'll see what we can do to get some more discussion of it.
I'm looking for other ways in which the Canadian government could facilitate the work you've been doing. One thing that member of Parliament for Edmonton—Strathcona Linda Duncan suggested today to the government was to implement visa-free access to Canada for Ukrainians, given that we have a free trade agreement and that Ukrainians already have visa-free access to Europe.
Would that kind of easy access facilitate these people-to-people relationships that you're working on?
