National Defence Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2017

[Paul Grod]

Absolutely. Unfortunately, there are still many in Ukraine who have not travelled abroad and have not travelled to either Europe or Canada. We'd like to see much more happen by way of youth exchanges, opportunities for students to study here, and opportunities for young professionals to gain experience.

A visa-free regime is something we strongly advocate for. As many know, Ukraine has recently been given visa-free status to the entire EU, and it has not opened a floodgate. I think it would be a very positive sign for Canada to give visa-free access to Ukrainians

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We'll have a look at the answer from the minister today, which was a bit of a complicated answer, to see whether we can move things along on that front.

I was very interested to hear you say that you thought Canada should seek a leadership role in the proposed peacekeeping mission in Ukraine. Ms. Alleslev started to ask the question and I'm going to ask it again. Do you see any contradiction in asking Canada to provide lethal weapons to Ukraine and then trying to assume a leadership role in the peacekeeping mission? I believe you said you did not, but I'd like you to expand on it a bit more, because it seems contradictory to me.

[Paul Grod]

A peacekeeping mission is not going to happen any time soon. As we know, these things take a long time to broker and a long time to get off the ground. We would love to see it happen soon, but in reality they're just starting to talk about it. If there are suggestions on how we can make it happen more quickly, then by all means. It is ultimately because of the degree of capacity of the Ukrainians to defend themselves that we are calling on Canada to provide defensive military equipment to Ukraine. There are many different ways of looking at what “defensive” means. It includes radar imagery; it includes other technology that allows them to monitor the front lines.

It's also putting pressure on Russia to allow the OSCE to actually monitor the border. They made a commitment that they would allow the OSCE to monitor the Russia-Ukraine border. Right now there are only two checkpoints. In fact, I just read a report today from the OSCE that there are only two checkpoints, involving several hundred metres of territory on the front line on the Russia-Ukraine border, that the OSCE is allowed to monitor. There are about 2,300 kilometres of line not being monitored, and Russia is not allowing the OSCE to monitor those. They're allowing free flow of military equipment. Those are the kinds of things we should be constantly pushing for.

Speaking with Minister Sajjan just a week ago, we learned that they're looking at the ways in which they help professionalize the Ukrainian military with logistics training and other things of that type.

There's a plethora of things we can do, but I think it's important, if only symbolically, for Canada to commit to providing defensive military equipment in order to allow the Ukrainian people to defend themselves. Russia understands one thing, that is, a strong deterrent to them that will extract a significant cost to their making any further advances. They won't do it. It's really meant to preclude Russia from continuing to make advances into Ukrainian territories. That's the whole purpose of defensive equipment: to defend.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I want to go back to the peacekeeping mission itself. You said that the peacekeeping mission should be present in all of the occupied territory, including along the Russian border. Russia has its own peacekeeping proposal—I guess that's hopeful, in that if both people are talking about peacekeeping missions, at least you have a common topic—but it's quite different in its proposal.

When you talk about Canada providing a leadership role in peacekeeping, are you talking about Canada's trying to get talks going on what a mission would look like, or are you talking about Canada's just assuming a leadership role in the actual mission itself?

[Paul Grod]

Well, it's both. I think you need to start off with Canada spearheading the dialogue, both at the United Nations and when it takes over the G7 presidency in January, to make this a key topic: how the G7 countries can come together and do something different. If we continue doing the same thing over and over again, we shouldn't expect different results. It's about time that we take something that is more strategic and will provide peace and security in that region.

At the end of the day, you have a chaotic situation, with very little rule of law in the occupied territories right now. That's why it's important, if you want to bring peace and stability to the region, that there be UN peacekeepers in the region and on the border of Russia and Ukraine, to prevent further troops and further military equipment infiltrating that region.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

The last seven-minute question period goes to Mark Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Mr. Westdal, I wasn't aware of your background before Mr. Hoback asked some of the questions that he did, so I want to clarify. You're before this committee advocating for reduced sanctions. Do you stand to financially gain from a reduction of sanctions?

[Chris Westdal]

No.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Okay. That's fine. I just want to put on the record that that's not the case.

You did say in reference to Canada's relationship with the U.S. that we go out of our way to get along with our neighbours. That was in the context of saying that Ukraine should try to get along with its neighbour, but I can't think of a time that would be more appropriate for a western country to get involved than when trying to help another nation truly claim its independence and rid itself of corruption, in particular corruption that's heavily influenced by its neighbour.

Do you not think, if there's any time for a western country to get involved in helping another nation build itself up, that Ukraine would be a shining example of that?

[Chris Westdal]

It's useful to focus on what happened in February 2014. When I speak about Ukraine getting along with its neighbour, I think that the Maidan picked a fight with the Kremlin. You remember that—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm sorry, I'm really limited in time, and I apologize for cutting you off, but I'm not talking about picking a fight with the Kremlin. I'm talking about our country getting involved in Ukraine. Is this not a great example?

[Chris Westdal]

We have been helping Ukraine for 25 years, and we will continue helping Ukraine, but it's clear that we don't know how to solve its problems. If we knew how to solve its problems, we would have made more progress than we're making. It's also clear that our aid programs, which have gone on now for 25 years—and I didn't know there were now proposals for that budget to be cut—are not going to change the direction of a nation of 40 million people.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Philosophically speaking, do you think there's any time that is appropriate to get involved in a situation like this?

[Chris Westdal]

As I said, we've been involved for 25 years. We're involved in supporting Ukraine—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

But you clearly stated that you didn't think we should be involved, because you think we should let them, as you said, “solve their own problems”.

[Chris Westdal]

I said they need to solve more of their own problems. It's perfectly clear that Ukraine's problems cannot be divorced from the larger context. Those two things are closely related.

Yes, we all together, the west and Russia, in the NATO Russia-Council and in the OSCE, in my view, need to give priority to trying to make room for Ukraine to trade with both sides and pose a security threat to neither side. So we will—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Our role there right now, at least diplomatically and militarily, is to help train the Ukrainian troops, help their judicial processes, and help their elected officials and their bureaucracy figure out how to rid themselves of corruption. We're there in an advisory way.

[Chris Westdal]

Is it working?

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

But that's.... My question for you, philosophically speaking, is do you think it's appropriate for another nation to get involved, generally speaking? Can you give an example of another—

[Chris Westdal]

Yes, indeed. Now, windows for foreign influence in countries open and close. Sometimes foreign intervention is welcomed and sometimes it isn't. Usually after a while, people get tired of foreigners intervening in their affairs and telling them what to do, because they don't think foreigners understand the depth of their problems. Usually that's the case, but certainly I—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

To answer your question, yes, I think it's working. We were there. We saw, and we heard from a lot of individuals, especially those who were trying to move and advance the revolution. They were very clear that Canada's involvement helps, even if it's just to prevent the oligarchs or the corruption from reinfiltrating. There was a clear signal that it was working.

I have to switch because I only have about two minutes left.

Mr. Grod, I understand that you're part of an elite group of 13 Canadians, as is Mr. Bezan, in that you're—

[Paul Grod]

He's not elite.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'm not elite.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

—well, the elite group of 13 who are not allowed into Russia. Can you explain the context behind your being sanctioned like that?