National Defence Committee on Oct. 25th, 2017

[Alan W. Bell]

Yes.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I think that one of the real struggles is how to reform that. The base that we went to, the base commander there had been the commander for 13 years. I have a base in my riding at which nobody is a base commander longer than two years. You are empire building after a while; it's just human nature.

How do you effectively deal with that problem?

[Alan W. Bell]

Time.

When you have a country that has been a Soviet bloc country for so many years, they're trained in their doctrine, they're trained in their military procedures and everything else, then all of a sudden the country decides it wants to go—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

They haven't been part of the Soviet Union for—

[Alan W. Bell]

For 15 years.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Right. Look at other countries that gained their independence at the same time. Why haven't they had that same.... I don't want to get into why they haven't had the same struggle, but how much more time is required?

[Alan W. Bell]

If these former bloc countries are going to come into NATO and into the west full time, they're going to have to be retrained, re-equipped, to deal as a member of NATO, not as a member of an independent country or an independent member of a Baltic state. That's going to take time. All the countries involved are going to have to provide whatever they need.

I go back again to the Ukraine. The Ukraine comes to the Canadian government and says they would like this, and they explain why. We say yes, yes, or no, no, no. I mean it's the Ukrainian government that's asking for help, so we either help or we don't help.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks very much for the time.

Mr. Bell, taking you back to the earlier conversation about a potential UN peacekeeping mission, do you see any signals at all that Putin is currently looking for a political off-ramp, or that he's interested in starting a conversation?

[Alan W. Bell]

I am not a political animal. I speak from experience. I don't want to speak from a political angle because what I am saying.... I know. I'm watching your faces, and your eyes, and you're saying “Oh, my God”.

I can only tell you what I think. I'm not saying for one minute that I am right, but I'm telling you what I think. I'm probably one of the very few people in Canada who has fought the Russians, because I was with the Mujahideen for nine months, fighting the Russians in the late eighties. I know what they're like. I know what they are like to fight. I know what they do.

They didn't have cyber in those days, but they had fear of reprisals, of Afghan women and children, because all the men had gone to join the Mujahideen, and I saw what the Russians did in those countries without cyber. So yes, you're getting it from me, from the experience of what I've done in my previous past when I was a younger guy.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

How would you characterize Canada from the perspective of Mr. Putin? Is it out of the question that we could take any other role than to remain partial in this conflict?

[Alan W. Bell]

We have a government. We have a Prime Minister. Diplomacy is obviously the best way to go. It depends on whether Putin, who has his own agenda, is going to listen to our Prime Minister, or the American president, or anybody else. At this moment he has his own agenda. He doesn't care and, unfortunately, we have a counterbalance called Mr. Trump in the White House.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Colonel Siromakha, could I get your views briefly? How united is the European Union on the conflicts, in what needs to be done for Ukraine to potentially end this conflict?

[Col Viktor Siromakha]

Ukraine is waiting for an agreement to a political accord among the European Union countries because what is going on in Europe now is quite a sophisticated process. We are following news from Spain, from Italy. We heard what happened to Montenegro a few months ago and those are all countries of the European Union.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Do you feel that Europe is unified on the question of Ukraine?

[Col Viktor Siromakha]

Europe has its own opinion, and we would like this opinion to be a little stronger.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you for that.

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

Colonel Siromakha, in addition to losing so many troops in this conflict I think that Canada and all NATO members owe a debt of gratitude to Ukraine because you're holding the line against one of the most powerful military machines in the world today. As Mr. Bell said, NATO was caught off guard and you helped buy NATO time to get ready and have the enhanced forward position.

Now is the time for us to do more for Ukraine, and I couldn't agree more with you. You mentioned a number of things on your list that you would like to see Canada provide. President Poroshenko also talked about RADARSAT images. Is that on the list as well, that you would like to see Canada reinstate the provision of that type of intelligence?

[Col Viktor Siromakha]

Yes. It could be very useful for our situational awareness because we really need this information to better understand what is going in the temporarily uncontrolled territory of Ukraine, over their temporarily uncontrolled border between Russia and Ukraine of approximately 400 kilometres, and up to the three official crossing points. Could you imagine how many unofficial points could be used by the Russians to deliver ammunition, fuel, Russian troops, whatever?

Once again, that's why satellite images could be very useful for our situational awareness.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In addition to Canadian, American, and U.K. troops training Ukrainian soldiers, when we were in Ukraine we heard from our guys at Yavoriv base that they are also learning from Ukrainian military members who have first-hand knowledge now of how Russia fights. Is there more opportunity for officer exchanges, as well as Ukrainians training Canadian and other NATO members on the hybrid war that Russia has been waging against the Ukraine?

[Col Viktor Siromakha]

Yes, definitely. It's an incredible opportunity to share this practical experience of how to fight in modern conditions. We are talking now about cyber, about hybrid war, but real, practical, modern combat is more visible, something more practical for soldiers to survive.

For instance, a great example of life hacks from Ukrainian soldiers is how you get water when you are blocked for days and weeks in an airport. Our soldiers found water in water heater systems in the winter and this water is better than what they've been drinking. This was incredible information for our Canadian partners who have been training our troops in the Yavoriv area. These basic military skills are very simple, but nevertheless these skills save lives.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you. I have a couple of quick questions for other witnesses.

Mr. Chair, we should have Mr. Wright back, especially as we dive more into the NATO study, and possibly do that in camera with the proper security measures in place so that we can have a more in-depth discussion on what needs to be done. Now you're talking about cyber-defence and cyberwarfare and preventive measures. By preventive measures are you talking that we have an offensive side to our cyberwarfare?

[Stuart Wright]

Again, it's difficult to answer that question. That question's determined by the fact that we don't already have offensive capability. I can't speak to that. I can speak to the fact that current and previous governments have taken appropriate measures in those areas.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Bell, I appreciate your comments a great deal, especially as to NATO being caught off guard, that we haven't done enough. I know a lot is hypothetical, but going forward what else does NATO need to be doing to not only assist Ukraine but to prepare for the next muse by Vladimir Putin.

I know some people keep thinking that he's trying to reinvent the Soviet Union. I believe he's an imperialist; he sees himself as czar. He's a capitalist; he doesn't want to go back to the communist way. I wonder what you think NATO needs to do.