Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I think it is extremely important.
I know you're asking about questions, but we also have questions about wanting people to come forward. We want to create the appropriate institutions. We will just undermine that. Please, it's extremely important that we don't undermine the ombudsman's office. You need to create that confidence and independence so that people feel safe. Otherwise, we actually undermine these things.
The main objective here is for people to come forward, and I have to—
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I can't undermine the confidentiality working with the ombudsman's office.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
I fully agree with you, Minister. We absolutely must protect the victims.
From the beginning, you've repeated that you can't answer our questions because an investigation is underway. I understand that and can appreciate where you are coming from. You're using the investigation to not answer, and that's legitimate. However, when this investigation is completed, you will be able to answer our questions and tell us when you became aware of the allegations.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I'm not fudging anything here. What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter when and where. Protecting the ombudsman's office and the conversations are extremely important, regardless of what the situation is. Changing that—me undermining that—will undermine the confidence that's built here.
Life would be so much easier for me to just be able to come out and say things, but, no, you need to protect the institutions that we have put into place. We need to protect the investigations that are currently in place.
I know this is extremely difficult. It's difficult for me. However, we have to right now protect the institutions that we have. We have to protect the investigations. Most importantly, we have to protect the women who have come forward and give them the confidence that they're going to have a fair chance in this process.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
With respect, Mr. Minister, no one is suggesting that we should undermine the independence of the office of the ombudsman. However, you have a second duty here that I've been talking about, and that is to protect your government's commitment, and indeed all of Parliament's commitment, to the ability of women to serve equally in the armed forces without facing sexual misconduct.
We are in a situation where, if you do not answer the question of when you knew, then the suspicion will be there in public that you knew about this and took no action to remove the chief of the defence staff from his responsibilities. It would not interfere in any way for you to tell us when you knew about this.
I'm not asking you to say what you did in terms of launching an investigation or who you talked to. All I'm asking is, when did you know about these allegations? If you can't answer that question, the suspicion will linger that this commitment that you and the government supposedly have to women serving equally in the armed forces isn't real.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
With all due respect, as I stated, no, I do take my responsibility extremely seriously. When it comes to your words and the implication that you're trying to create with that, and the “suspicion” word that you're using, I don't have the luxury to be able to come out and do this. My responsibility as the Minister of National Defence is to protect our people. By doing so, I need to protect the institution when it comes to the ombudsman's office, so that the process is protected, so that women can feel comfortable to come forward, and so that anytime there's hateful conduct, somebody feels comfortable to come forward.
I know how difficult this may be. We want answers when it comes to this. I know how difficult it used to be when I was a police officer. We would love to talk about things, but, no, we have a system in place that has to be protected, and right now the integrity of the investigation.... I can understand some of the politics that some people would like to play as well, but one thing I can assure you is that what I've said is what I can say: Two weeks ago, I was just as surprised as everyone else.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
If you were just as surprised two weeks ago, then you couldn't have known about these allegations.
I also have serious questions about the parallel with Admiral Norman. There were allegations against him and he was promptly removed. You and others in the government commented at length on his situation when he was removed on the basis of allegations. However, similar—and I would argue even more serious—allegations against the chief of the defence staff warrant completely different treatment. I'm having trouble understanding why that's the case.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
As I stated, Madam Chair, when it comes to any allegations ever brought forward, they were always taken to the appropriate authorities very quickly.
Liberal
February 19th, 2021 / 3:40 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I'm referring to the minister. Who were the proper authorities—the Privy Council, the JAG—that the allegations were reported to when you learned of it?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I don't understand the premise of the question.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Who were the proper authorities that you keep on referring to, once you learned of the allegations? Who were they reported to, the Privy Council or the JAG? Who were the proper authorities?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, when it comes to any type of complaint, there are multiple authorities that we can bring it to. I can assure you that any information that was brought forward was taken to the appropriate authorities.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Which ones? Which ones did they take them to, Madam Chair?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, as I stated, when it comes to any information that was brought forward, it was always reported to the appropriate authorities.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Minister, you were just as surprised when the news came out. Were you surprised because it was the first time you learned of these allegations, or were you surprised that everyone else had found out?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I have to be very careful when it comes to what I say to make sure that we protect the integrity of the investigation. As I said in my statement two weeks ago, I was just as surprised to learn about the allegations, but when it comes to any allegation that is ever brought forward, it is always taken very seriously. This is something that I took to heart when I became minister. It's from my previous experience working as a police officer. Also, when it comes to having a voice, I know what it feels like not to be heard. It's very important to put the right institutions in place and protect the integrity of—
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
The integrity of the investigation.... Is the minister under investigation? Are your actions or inactions in this scandal under investigation?
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
You keep on saying that the investigation must be protected. Are you talking about an investigation into your actions or inactions in this scandal?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I don't know how to answer assertions, ridiculous assertions, in this case.
