Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
Absolutely. I didn't think my question would jeopardize the investigation, but I'll move on to another topic.
Military justice does not permit the highest-ranking officers, such as the Chief of the Defence Staff, to be charged with disciplinary offences. Are you going to propose any changes to that?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
What I will say is that we'll allow the investigation to take its course. However, we will take an independent investigation and look at what changes need to be made when it comes to the administrative aspect. One thing I am very concerned about is that members felt that they could not come forward. This is something we need to change, and so those are the answers that we need, but we'll take the time to make sure that we get this right, so we can get the appropriate recommendations. I'm open to suggestions from anyone when it comes to how we can do things better, and that's something we're committed to doing.
Bloc
Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC
In this case, Mr. Vance is the only person who could have laid disciplinary charges.
Furthermore, if the new Chief of the Defence Staff decides to lay disciplinary charges against Mr. Vance, he will request a court martial. This type of trial requires a five-member jury of a rank equal to or higher than that of the person charged. Since Mr. Vance has the rank of general, only the new Chief of the Defence Staff has a rank equal to that of Mr. Vance. I remind you that the jury must be composed of five members and, of course, the person laying the charges cannot be on the jury. So this is a serious problem that will have to be addressed, and quickly.
What is the usual reaction of subordinates when their superior engages in sexual misconduct? Are they usually reluctant to report it?
How does the current system protect victims and whistleblowers if the supervisor may be made aware of the charges against him?
February 19th, 2021 / 3:15 p.m.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I can't prejudge any outcome, nor should I. Protecting the integrity of the investigation is extremely important. I know that a lot of people have questions. We all want answers, but we need to protect the integrity of the investigation.
More importantly, we need to make sure that the women who are coming forward.... It has always been my focus to make sure that we give them the confidence to be able to come forward and if there are any more out there, that they can come forward. They will be heard and listened to and the allegations will be investigated.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you to the minister for being here today.
Mr. Minister, there seems to be an obvious contradiction in what you're saying today. In your opening statement, you say that you were “as shocked as everyone else” to hear these allegations, yet you imply that you knew about the allegations. These can't both be true at the same time.
Let me ask you this very specifically. There are many ways you could have learned about these allegations. They might have come from the previous government, which knew about allegations of sexual conduct against General Vance and had them investigated before he was appointed. They could have come from the ombudsman. They could have come from many sources. I'm not asking you to give me the source of your knowledge. I'm asking for you to confirm to me whether you knew or did not know about these allegations before they became public.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I want to make it very clear here. I'm not implying anything. What I'm saying here is that the conversations in the meetings are confidential when it comes to the ombudsman's office. I'm saying that any allegations that were brought forward were always taken to the appropriate authorities.
I'm not implying anything. I'm also stating here that I was just as shocked as...two weeks ago. Right now, it's very important for us to protect the integrity of the investigation.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
No one's asking about the investigation. We're asking about your actions as the minister.
If you knew about this, you had two different responsibilities that are before the committee today. One was to act to make sure that those were investigated.
There's a second responsibility as the minister. That's to protect the integrity of Operation Honour and to protect the ability of women to serve equally in the Canadian Armed Forces.
Your responsibility as the minister seems to have been breached, I guess I would say. You knew that there were allegations of a very serious nature against the person in charge of the program for rooting out sexual misconduct in the military. Without disciplining the chief of the defence staff, there are other actions you could and should have taken. One would be to transfer responsibility for that program away from the person who had already been accused.
When Operation Honour was launched, General Vance himself said, “It does not matter, for even a single incident is too many...even unintentional harm or offence is unacceptable.”
If that's true and you actually believe that, why didn't you transfer the responsibility for Operation Honour to another officer as soon as you knew of these very serious allegations?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, I think it's extremely important for members not to make assertions or make it appear that I am implying anything here. I'm stating that I need to protect the integrity of the investigation. As difficult as this may be—and we all want answers on this—we have to go through the appropriate process.
One thing I can say is that if anything was brought to my attention, it was always taken seriously and very quickly taken to the appropriate authorities, so that the appropriate processes could take place and it could be investigated.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
But, specifically, Mr. Minister, I'm asking about your other responsibility, which is to protect the integrity of Operation Honour and the ability of women to serve equally. You have two responsibilities. One is to make sure it's investigated, but I'm not asking you about that today. The second responsibility is to protect the integrity of the program, to attack sexual misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces.
I'm asking you today why you did not take that action. It did not require prejudging General Vance at all; it required you to act to protect the integrity of that program by removing the shadow of doubt from it at the highest level.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, one thing I can assure all members is how seriously I take my responsibility when it comes to looking after our people, how seriously I take chapter 1 of our defence policy when it comes to situations like this. Now, I can't imagine what these women have gone through, because I'm a male. But one thing I can say is that I've gone through similar situations of not being heard. I can assure all the members here that I take my responsibility to look after our people extremely seriously, regardless of rank or position. All processes were always followed.
I'm here talking to the Canadian Armed Forces members—the women—who need that confidence right now to come forward. I can assure you that I and members of my defence team have been taking this extremely seriously.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Well, let me say, Mr. Minister, that, obviously, all of us recognize that it's the bravery of women who have come forward to tell their stories that allows any progress on these issues whatsoever. But, at the highest level, we cannot have a person with multiple allegations of sexual misconduct in charge of the program to combat sexual misconduct in the military. Without judging whether or not he is guilty of any of those allegations, it's a mark that impairs the ability to build trust within the Canadian Forces.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, two weeks ago allegations were brought forward, and now the appropriate authorities are taking the steps for the formal investigation. When it comes to an investigation, it is very important now for all of us to make sure that we protect the integrity of the investigation. As the member stated, Madam Chair, it is absolutely important. The courage that it took for the women to come forward....
Those are the questions that I want answered as well, and that Canadians want the answers on. Why didn't the women have the confidence to come forward? Obviously something went wrong there. Those are the questions we want answered so that we can make the changes, so that they can come forward.
More importantly, how do we find the steps to make sure that we can prevent these types of situations?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
All right. Thank you very much.
We'll move on to Madame Alleslev, please.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much.
Minister, could you confirm, by providing your calendar of the March 1 ombudsman meeting in 2018? This doesn't affect the investigation. This is just to confirm that, in fact, on March 1, 2018, you had a meeting with the ombudsman. Would you please provide that to this committee?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I meet and have met with the ombudsman on many different occasions, but one thing I can assure you—
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Will you provide your calendar to confirm what those occasions were?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I can assure you that I have met with the ombudsman on many occasions, and quite regularly, to make sure.... But it's extremely important that we protect the confidentiality of the conversations and the meetings, so that the people come forward.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Absolutely. Could you please provide a copy of your calendar to this committee to confirm those meetings?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, when it comes to the actual meetings, I don't see the relevance of the question here.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Under the National Defence Act you have the authority to remove the CDS from his position.
Under the Defence Administrative Order and Directive section 6.2, it states that, “Upon becoming aware of alleged sexual misconduct...a CO must consider whether it is appropriate to remove the respondent from a supervisory, instructional or command position”. Did you do this in the case of the allegations of sexual misconduct against the former chief of the defence staff?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Madam Chair, first, to answer the question directly, as the Minister of National Defence, you do not have the authority to remove a chief of defence staff—
Conservative
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
One thing I can assure you is that when it comes to any type of information, any allegation on anybody, it was always quickly given to the appropriate authorities for the appropriate investigation to take place.
Conservative
Leona Alleslev Conservative Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
While he was Chief of the Defence Staff, General Vance suspended Vice-Admiral Mark Norman from duty 96 hours after he became aware of allegations, and therefore unproven facts. You supported this decision.
Why didn't you use the same standard for General Vance?