Evidence of meeting #15 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Christyne Tremblay  Deputy Clerk, Privy Council Office
Janine Sherman  Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Public Service Renewal, Privy Council Office

2:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 15 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room or remotely using the Zoom application.

Before speaking, please make sure you wait until I recognize you by name. If you're on video conference, please use the microphone icon to unmute yourself. To those of you in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

I'll remind you that all comments by members should be addressed through the chair. When speaking, speak slowly and clearly in order to help our interpreters. Please, when you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 9, 2021, the committee is commencing its study of addressing sexual misconduct issues in the Canadian Armed Forces, including the allegations against former chief of the defence staff Jonathan Vance.

With us today by video conference for the first hour is the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence. From the Department of National Defence, we have Madam Jody Thomas, deputy minister and Admiral Geneviève Bernatchez, judge advocate general of the Canadian Armed Forces.

After the opening remarks from the minister, we will proceed with rounds of questions. I would like to advise the committee members that I will be quite rigid with time-keeping today. Please track your time because even though you may not believe it, I really do hate interrupting you. I would also like to caution the members that we only have a limited amount of time with the minister today. I would like to make the most of his and our time.

With that said, we would like to welcome the Honourable Minister Harjit Sajjan. I would like to invite you to make your opening statement.

2:50 p.m.

Vancouver South B.C.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of National Defence

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Members of the Standing Committee on National Defence, thank you for allowing me to address the serious concerns that were brought forward regarding the former chief of the defence staff.

I was as shocked as everyone else at the allegations that were made public two weeks ago. I want to stress that any inappropriate behaviour, harassment or sexual misconduct is completely unacceptable in the Canadian Armed Forces and in the Department of National Defence.

Regarding the allegations involving the former chief of the defence staff, the Canadian Forces national investigation service has initiated an investigation, so I can't comment on the specifics of the case. I have full confidence the investigation will proceed fairly and in accordance with the law. I am confident this process will make sure that if the evidence shows wrongdoing, we will hold those responsible accountable. Nobody in Canada is above the law, no matter their rank or position.

I know how important it is for any investigation by CFNIS to occur independently from outside influence. The last thing I want, the last thing we want here, is to undermine the independence of the process, preventing a just outcome.

I'm deeply troubled that members of the Canadian Armed Forces have felt trust has been broken and that people believe they could not come forward. No matter the rank, no matter the position, sexual misconduct and harassment is not acceptable. We want it reported. We want it investigated. We want to support those impacted.

Eliminating sexual misconduct and creating a safe work environment for everyone on the defence team has been one of my top priorities as the Minister of National Defence. We have more work to do to ensure that any member of the Canadian Armed Forces or civilian in the Department of National Defence feels able to come forward with complaints without fear of any sort of reprisal.

I also want to recognize the women who have come forward with these allegations. We're offering all available resources to them to help support them through this difficult time. Ensuring their well-being must be our focus.

We recognize how difficult it can be to bring forward allegations, and we must do more to eliminate the barriers that prevent people from reporting. I treat all allegations of inappropriate behaviour, harassment or sexual misconduct with the utmost seriousness. I can assure this committee and all Canadians that any allegations that were brought forward were aggressively and very quickly put forward to the proper authorities. All the proper processes were followed.

Along with the defence team, I will continue ensuring the recent allegations are addressed through the proper authorities. We will have a thorough and deep independent investigation separate from the chain of command.

You want answers, Canadians want answers and I want answers, but most importantly those who have stepped forward with allegations deserve answers.

Madam Chair, any inappropriate behaviour, harassment or sexual misconduct damages our institution beyond repair. These actions undermine morale, they jeopardize operational readiness and they break the trust of those who have volunteered and stepped up to serve Canada. It is a betrayal of the trust between our defence team members and their leadership.

Our members and all Canadians expect the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces to embody a culture where all are treated with dignity and respect. This work will and must continue. This is an ongoing and enduring effort. It is one on which we need to do more, and we will do more.

When incidents of misconduct do occur and are reported, our members rightfully expect that we undertake a thorough and meaningful investigation. That is what Canadians expect. That is what I expect. I have no tolerance for sexual misconduct.

Each and every allegation needs to be investigated, no matter the rank or position of those involved. Whenever any concerns were brought to my attention, I've always insisted and ensured they were brought to the proper authorities for any and all investigations that may be warranted.

We will do absolutely everything in our power to make the changes that need to be made to eliminate and discourage sexual misconduct from the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence. We took meaningful steps by releasing a policy on sexual misconduct last year to prevent and address sexual misconduct and to support those who have been affected by it.

I also know how hollow this may sound given the situation, but there are those like Dr. Preston, those in the sexual misconduct response centre and many members of the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence who are tirelessly working to make our institution a safer place for all.

We have also launched a panel meant to uncover systemic discrimination and bias within the Canadian Armed Forces. This panel will make recommendations for systemic change based on a number of factors, including gender. As an organization, it is our collective responsibility to support those who have been harmed and to ensure that people are treated fairly. When people come forward with allegations, we must believe and support them to allow the appropriate authorities to investigate. It is the responsibility of every single person in the defence team to respect one another, to hold themselves and their peers accountable, to act according to the values and principles that Canadians expect of us and to recognize, address and report unacceptable behaviour.

We know that we need to do more to help people feel safe and empowered to bring forward their stories. We must eliminate the barriers and the fear that prevent people from coming forward and reporting. When they do come forward, we must take their concerns seriously. Just as importantly, we must make sure that they are heard. We must ensure that they do not face any retaliation or reprisal, even informally. We must support them through every step of the process. We must show every single member of the defence team that we are committed to this through meaningful action.

Our work has not stopped since 2015, and it will not stop now. Though we have made meaningful progress, we have more work to do. We need a complete and total culture change. Our actions to root out this insidious behaviour must match our words. We need to ensure that, no matter your rank or position, your behaviours and attitudes must match the values that Canadians expect and that we ensure a safe and respectful workplace for everyone.

The Canadian Armed Forces has traditionally had a culture of masculinity. There are toxic elements of masculinity that have risen to the fore on numerous occasions. To be serious about genuine culture change, we need to acknowledge this and tackle this head-on. Though institutional culture change is complex and takes time, the time for patience is over. Change will not and cannot happen on its own. It requires a persistent and complete acknowledgement that we must do better, and we will.

Every member across the organization must be invested in it. Every member must be accountable for their actions, no matter their rank, no matter their position. It involves everyone in the chain, from the bottom up and the top down. It goes without saying that the same rules and standards must apply to all.

We must continue building trust in each other and in our organization, trust that must be continually earned. We will continue to work to earn it.

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to speak. I welcome your questions.

3 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Minister Sajjan.

I will now open the floor for questions.

First up today is Mr. Bezan, please.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the minister for appearing.

Minister, of course this has been a lot in the media. It's been reported that former military ombudsman Gary Walbourne had a meeting on March 1, 2018 with you. Is that true, yes or no?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, I have had many meetings with the former ombudsman to discuss important issues.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Are you denying that you met with him on March 1, 2018?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, as I stated, I have met with the ombudsman on many occasions. Obviously, our conversations are confidential.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Well, when did you first learn of the allegations against the chief of the defence staff? According to multiple media sources, they were raised with you at that March 1 meeting.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, one thing I can assure all honourable members of this committee and all Canadians is that any reporting or any allegations brought to me were always taken to the appropriate authorities very quickly and were taken very seriously.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Minister, according to media sources, multiple individuals have said that General Vance was alleged to have engaged in sexual misconduct that was brought to your attention on March 1, 2018. What did you do with that information?

February 19th, 2021 / 3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, as I stated earlier, our conversations with the ombudsman are obviously kept confidential so that people can feel comfortable to come forward to the ombudsman.

One thing I can assure you is that any allegations or any information that was brought forward was always quickly taken to the appropriate authorities for the appropriate action.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Minister, when did you first become aware of the allegations against former chief of defence staff Jon Vance?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

As I stated, Madam Chair, any information that was at any time brought forward was always taken to the appropriate authorities for the appropriate action.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

When did that happen?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, as I stated, the information, when it comes to our discussions with the ombudsman, is always kept confidential to make sure that everybody has the confidence to be able to come forward to the ombudsman's office.

One thing I can assure you and the members, to answer the member's question directly here, is that any information that was brought forward was always taken very quickly to the authorities.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Minister, you are just repeating yourself over and over again.

You've said many times that you have zero tolerance for sexual misconduct. You said it on CTV on May 13, 2018. You said it on November 20, 2018 on Twitter. In 2018 you said zero tolerance, sexual misconduct of any kind has no place, so if you believe that, then when you first had these allegations about General Vance brought to your attention, why didn't you do anything right away?

Did you just willfully turn a blind eye?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, I want to make it very clear here. If somebody had come forward with allegations.... Now that there's an independent investigation currently going on. I want to make it very clear that any information that was brought forward was always taken to the appropriate authorities. For obvious reasons here, we need to make sure that we protect the integrity of the investigation—

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, Minister.

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

—to give confidence to people who finally come forward so that there a fair process can take place.

3 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Minister, under the National Defence Act, part 1, section 4, it says under “Duties”:

The Minister holds office during pleasure, has the management and direction of...all matters relating to national defence...

This includes everything in the Canadian Armed Forces. Are you aware of your duties under the National Defence Act?

3 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, I'm not only aware of my duties, but I also know that I am not the investigative body. In our democracy, the investigative system is through our police, and we need to always follow the processes to give fairness to anybody who has come forward so that any allegations can be taken to the appropriate authorities so that they can be investigated properly.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Mr. Minister, now the chief of defence staff reports to you, doesn't he serve at the pleasure of the government? Yes or no.

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Yes.

3:05 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

So General Jonathan Vance was under your direct command. These are extremely serious allegations of sexual misconduct that were made known to you, and you had the sole responsibility to act and took all that investigation, so why didn't you immediately start that investigation after your March 1 meeting in 2018?

3:05 p.m.

Liberal

Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Madam Chair, the member should know, because he was a parliamentary secretary, that, as the Minister of National Defence, I don't have the power to launch investigations. That is independent of us. That is why, when any information is brought forward, it has to be given to the appropriate authorities so not to undermine any processes so that, if justice needs to be done, it can be done through the appropriate process.

No one outside the police or the appropriate authority should have that power, and the member should know this.