National Defence Committee on Feb. 19th, 2021

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It's a question. Are you under investigation for your inaction or action in this scandal?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No, I'm not under investigation. If anybody ever was, that wouldn't be known.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

We're wondering why you can't answer any questions about the meetings and the timelines. Can you tell us whether or not...according to the military officers, you could have done more to address the allegations against a former chief of defence staff when you learned about them in March of 2018. You could have done more. Could you have? Yes or no?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, as I stated, if any information was at any time brought forward, it was always taken to the appropriate authorities very quickly.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

These were reported in 2018. Is the minister saying he is not the proper authority? Would these not come across his desk? Would he not be told?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to the process for allegations, I can have the deputy minister go through this—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

No, I asked you—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

—as a matter of fact, as the minister, you don't have the authority to conduct the—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

—whether or not the proper authorities were the JAG or who the proper authorities were. You just simply said “the proper authorities”. I want to know who the proper authorities are. We're trying to figure out process here.

As Mr. Garrison said, women and men in the Canadian Armed Forces need to know that if they lodge a complaint about sexual assault, it is going to be addressed. Did you speak with former military ombudsman Gary Walbourne following the March 1, 2018, meeting? Yes or no.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I have met with the former ombudsman on a number of occasions because of the work that the ombudsman does and the report that he writes. It's extremely important. However, when it comes to the actual process, I can have the deputy minister kind of walk through the process again.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

When a report of sexual misconduct of this level comes to you, generally speaking, who is it reported to? Is it the Privy Council, the JAG or someone else? Who are the proper authorities?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Deputy Minister, can you run through the process again and the—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

No, not the process. I want to know who the proper authorities are. You've repeated the process. I get the process. I want to know who it is reported to once you learn of it.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'll have the deputy minister walk you through the various processes that are there to help answer that question.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

But before she does that, Minister, do you think you've lived up to the goals of Op Honour?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Madam Chair, I have taken my job looking after our people very seriously, and I can assure you that as I stated, no rank, no position comes into play when it comes to any types of allegations that come forward. I was just as surprised as anybody else two weeks ago. Having said this, right now it's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Madam Vandenbeld, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister, Deputy Minister and JAG for being here today.

I'd like to delve into what I think is becoming an erroneous perception of an inconsistency here and ask you a little more specifically.

The fact is that this is an independent body. If somebody goes to that ombudsperson and provides information but does not wish to make a formal complaint, hypothetically—and I know you have to be very careful about what you say about this—whether or not something like that was ever told to you, you can't say if it was or if it wasn't. Presuming that, if you didn't know anything, if nothing was told to you, you would not be able to tell this committee that either.

I wanted to clarify that, and I know you have to be careful. The fact is that when you're saying you were surprised, you were shocked, I don't think that is inconsistent, given that you cannot even reveal what may or may not have been told to you in the past.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As I stated, it is so important to protect the integrity of that office so the confidentiality is always there and that regardless of what the conversation might be, regardless of what somebody else might think those conversations might be, we have to protect that so people can come forward. That office is so important.

As we're talking about sexual misconduct now, it takes many different complaints. We need to create multiple avenues so people can come forward. I've been in a place at a time when you feel you're not being heard, and protecting the integrity of not only this office but of the various processes that are independent when it comes to investigations is extremely important to build that confidence.

Ultimately I know that every member of the committee here, when we're talking about trying to put a system in place to have people come forward...but at the same time, you can't assert and try to accidentally undermine that either, and it pains me that this has taken place, that women did not feel comfortable to come forward. We take this very seriously; we do need to look at it deeply, and this is why I've said we will conduct an independent investigation administratively to take a look at those types of issues.

What are the changes we need to make? But now that women have finally come forward, we need to protect the importance and the integrity of the investigation to allow a process to take place, and I can't say more than that. Regardless of how uncomfortable it makes me feel, I have to make sure the protection is there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I'm afraid we're over an hour for our first panel, so thank you to the witnesses for coming forward today.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I want to quickly point out, there have been numerous times here today when we've asked the minister about his schedule. I'd ask that he save us time on having to do requests for papers or ATIPs or order paper questions by supplying us with the dates and times he met with Gary Walbourne, the former ombudsman, just to help with our study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Madam Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Madam Chair, I do believe that asking for a calendar itinerary would require an order of the House, not of a committee.