National Defence Committee on Oct. 26th, 2020

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you both for that.

I think I have about a minute and a half left, so maybe I'll turn to Ambassador O'Neill.

Perhaps I could ask you this question. What are the greatest obstacles to achieving those measures of success that we've just talked about, or at least the measures of success that you're concerned about? What can we do to overcome them?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

It's a very short question there.

Culture is a big one: traditional expectations and traditional roles. That said, times of conflict tend to be highly disruptive. We see that a lot of progression and leaps forward can be made in times of conflict. There's a lot of reordering going on and rethinking of different people's roles.

Another thing is people trying to cling to power. A lot of people use the excuse, I think, of culture. It's not culturally appropriate in some places for women to be involved in something or other. Usually that's just a cover by people who want to hold on to their own power, who are afraid of their own constituents actually holding them accountable.

Those are two big ones. I'll leave it here, in case General Bourgon wants to intervene on her portfolio specifically.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

I think, as you said, Jackie, it is the culture. Still in Canada today, women have those gender roles and those cultural identities, and quite often they think that they can't join the CAF, and it's so wrong.

I'm 125 pounds, five foot three, and I was a helicopter pilot. If I could do it, anybody can do it. What we need to change is that culture.

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you both very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

Monsieur Brunelle-Duceppe.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to finish the short conversation I had earlier with Ms. Bourgon, as I did not have time to put my last question to her.

I don't know if you remember this, Ms. Bourgon, but we were talking about objectives for 2026. What we have understood is that the pandemic has affected all recruitment and not only the recruitment of women. You have after all provided us with good figures.

Despite everything, are you optimistic about achieving your objective of 25% in 2026? You can obviously say more about this.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

It will be difficult. As I said, we have challenges to overcome. The barriers are still cultural in nature. We have to convince women and minorities in Canada to join the Canadian Armed Forces. This is a superb organization.

There is still work to be done, I admit, but we are working hard on this. Society must change for women not to be limited to traditional career settings and be interested in other areas, such as mathematics and sciences. The road will be a difficult one.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

My next question is primarily for Ms. O'Neill, but you could also answer it, Ms. Bourgon.

In 2017, the Prime Minister promised a 200-soldier quick reaction force reserved for peacekeeping missions. In reality, we know that the government is lagging a bit behind in terms of registering that force with the UN.

Regarding that engagement in peacekeeping and the women, peace and security agenda, has the government included you in its process for implementing a quick reaction force?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

I was included in the discussions on the structure of the women, peace and security agenda, the role of those who are in charge of it and the way to train counsellors on gender equality.

I now turn to the Brigadier General, who could give you more information.

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

We are currently working with the United Nations on the concept of a mixed team. In 2021, the United Nations will require that women account for 50% of their mixed engagement teams. We are working on that concept with the United Nations to establish what those forces will be asked to do, and to determine what training and equipment they will need. It is important to have men and women on the ground with the training, skills and equipment necessary to respond to any situation. The Canadian Armed Forces are working with the United Nations on analyzing the necessary training and skills going forward.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

In the discussions you had, was there....

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

It's time for Madame McPherson.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Poor Alexis, I keep cutting him off.

Thank you very much again for all these answers. This is fascinating. I would love to go for coffee and have lots of time to ask you all sorts of questions. I'll try to be brief.

I thought I would start by giving Ambassador O'Neill an opportunity to share her last piece. We cut her off on her answer last time. After she shares her last piece, I have a few questions for the brigadier-general, if that's possible.

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

Thank you. I appreciate that. I'll be quick.

The member had asked about our contributions and our work around the Elsie initiative for women in peace operations, which has numerous parts. One of the parts is an international fund called the Elsie initiative fund. It was set up last year.

To the member's question, it has now raised in total about $21 million so far. We have contributions from Australia, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, the U.K. The member correctly mentioned that Canada has contributed in total about $17.5 million Canadian. The idea of it is to encourage countries in particular to address the barriers, which we were talking about earlier, that women face in being recruited, being retained, moving up the ranks, getting deployed to UN peace operations, having reasonable and positive experiences on those operations, and coming back for more deployment—the whole spectrum. It covers a range of things through that fund. We've been growing and adding partners to the fund as well as the work overall, which includes various other components.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

The $17.5 million seems like an incredibly small amount to be contributing to that, but I won't ask you to comment on that, at this point.

Brigadier-General, I'd like to ask you a few questions about recruitment and how we're managing that. I really appreciated your comment about this not being a women's issue but something that needs to incorporate men in this conversation. I also wonder about some of our recruitment in terms of indigenous recruitment. Can you talk a little bit about any initiatives that have been undertaken to recruit indigenous women to the CAF?

[BGen Lise Bourgon]

I'm sorry, this one is a little outside my field, but I'm sure we can take this question on notice. I know there are some initiatives targeted towards our indigenous community, and they're working, but I cannot give you any specifics. I apologize.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I would love to get any further information you have on that for the future.

I want to follow up a little on one of the questions—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

I know; it's going very quickly.

Mr. Benzen.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador O'Neill and Brigadier-General Bourgon.

Ms. O'Neill, Canada has failed to act on its pledge to provide 600 peacekeepers for UN missions. In fact, since February 2020, the number of Canadian troops has fallen to zero. Does it make it more difficult for Canada to advocate for women to participate in peacekeeping globally when we're not leading by example?

[Jacqueline O'Neill]

The number is not zero. I know that Brigadier-General Bourgon can elaborate on that. There are a lot of different ways to assess our contribution. We're the ninth-largest financial contributor to the peacekeeping budget, based on assessed contribution.

What I can speak to most directly is our reputation as it relates to the idea of inclusion and promoting women within forces. We have a very strong reputation at the UN for that, in part through the Elsie initiative, where we're saying to countries not only “Send more women”, but also what the need is of the entire system to do so. We're also really focusing on targeting and talking to women. There's a lot of conversation in the UN about women peacekeepers and very little conversation to women peacekeepers. Canada has been very clearly identified, especially in the last few years, as really leading that and not just talking about this as an object of UN policy but engaging people in developing it. I do see that we have quite a positive reputation in many, many ways at the UN.

Brigadier-General Bourgon can—

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Having boots on the ground in the countries, developing your relationships with the people on the ground, creating those relationships, especially the female-to-female relationships, talking to the children—isn't that important? Shouldn't we be striving to make sure we're there on the ground?