National Defence Committee on April 12th, 2021

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You cannot call the vote.

[An hon. member]

You cannot.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

There were no hands up when I called the vote.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

My hand was up.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

You cannot call the vote as long as there are speakers.

We'll have chaos here until you agree to hear speakers. We will continue to disrupt this committee until you adhere to the rules.

You must adhere to the rules or adjourn the committee at this point. There is no alternative. You may not proceed against the rules of the committee.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I had my hand up.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Madam Chair, I'd like to go back to your decision.

To my knowledge, it isn't possible for the chair to cut off debate and announce a vote directly, without there being any debate.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I believe the chair is suspending to confer with the clerk.

I also didn't see any hands up in front of me when the chair said that we were going to the vote. I think that's why she said—

[An hon. member]

I raised my hand.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Maybe there was a technical thing.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Maybe the chair can officially suspend, then, if that's what she has done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

We will suspend to confer with the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Stand by—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

—stand by, stand by.

When I called the vote, there were no hands up. I assure you there were no hands up.

Now it looks as though there are people who wish to debate. I get it. If people want to do this, then we can go ahead with the debate, and we're good with that.

However, I will assure you that when I called for the vote, there were no hands up. If there was a technical glitch and there was a delay, that's fine. These are the challenges of working in a hybrid system, but we can make it work.

Those who want to—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I have a point of order, ma'am.

You can't see over the box in front of you. My hand was up also.

More to the point, I asked you specifically, after we went to Mr. Bezan's motion, if that meant we were going directly to a vote on Ms. Vandenbeld's motion, and you said, no, that we were going to debate it instead.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Here's the challenge.

This is the time to debate. I get that, and we'll allow that to happen. It's really important that we do this.

I'll go ahead.

The last one up was Monsieur Barsalou-Duval.

I want to see whether your question was answered, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, or whether there is more that you would like to bring forward at this point in the debate.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

My question has been answered, Madam Chair. I'd like to add something, but I think I raised my hand after my question was answered. So I'll let the next person go, and I'll wait my turn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right.

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I do have to say I think it's incumbent on the chair to make sure that there are no people waiting to speak before moving to a vote. I say that with all respect. We are dealing with virtual parliaments, which do sometimes have electronic delays. I accept that it may have been the case.

In any case, returning to the substance of this motion, we heard the parliamentary secretary tell us that there is no way that we can return a report to the House of Commons before the summer adjournment if we don't finish this by Friday. I know that she has leaned on her interpretation of the clerk's remarks, and I don't wish to draw the clerk into a debate about this, but it's very clear that it's not the case, and that the committee would have the ability to continue to hear the witnesses we need to hear and then to have a session for giving instructions to the drafters and then have, obviously, an in camera session of full debate on what this committee is going to recommend to the House.

We are dealing, I think, with one of the most important concepts that have ever been dealt with while I've been on the defence committee, and that is the trust that serving members have in the senior leadership of the military. We, as Mr. Bezan pointed out, must get to the bottom of these questions in order to try to restore that trust. That trust also extends to the Minister of National Defence and indeed to the Prime Minister.

What we as the opposition are trying to do is to make sure that we get the evidence we need to restore that trust. That's why what I believe are quite direct attempts today to cut off debate are inappropriate and do not serve the serving members of the Canadian Forces well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you very much.

I've asked the clerk whether he feels comfortable talking to this, but he actually suggested that we ask our analysts, because it's the analysts who will oversee, really, the writing and the translation of the report and the drafts and things.

So would our lead analyst like to comment on the suggested schedule and the development of that schedule?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, I would like clarification regarding Ms. Vandenbeld's motion. If it passes, does that mean the witnesses who are appearing before us today will not appear and that she's cutting off our having any further meetings that include having witnesses, or does it include cutting it off at witnesses who were about to be scheduled and going to the report stage?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Madam Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

My motion simply states that we need to send our recommendations and drafting instructions by Friday at 4 p.m. That does not mean that today's witnesses or even Friday's witnesses would not be heard. It just means that we would have to have those instructions by 4 p.m. Given my understanding of the back and forth with the analysts, the clerk and the chair, if we don't do that, the timeline would be such that we might not be able to have a report before the summer recess.