Evidence of meeting #28 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was misconduct.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
When did you tell the Prime Minister that Admiral Art McDonald stepped aside because of allegations against him? Did you ask him to step aside?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
I'm not sure how that is relevant here, but the clerk does—
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Well, this is part of our study as well. We're considering sexual allegations against chiefs of the defence staff, plural. We have Art McDonald and we have Jonathan Vance. In both cases it seems different avenues were taken. In one, because it was reported to the media, you guys reacted. In the other, you guys covered it up because nobody else knew about it, which is true.
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
No.
I want to remind you what we knew in March 2018. We knew of the existence of a complaint from the ombudsperson that he passed on—
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Well, you just testified that you had many conversations with Michael Wernick and Elder Marques. Both Michael Wernick and Elder Marques have said at committee that they understood this was a sexual misconduct and sexual harassment issue. In those conversations, how many times did you actually—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon
I let you go over time, Mr. Bezan. We're already at six and a half minutes. I tried to let it go to finish this, but we're not going to get everyone a turn if we do that, so I'm afraid I'll have to go on to Mr. Baker.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thanks very much, Madam Chair.
Ms. Telford, I'd like to thank you for being here today to answer the committee's questions.
I want to make sure that we all understand what happened here.
In your opening statement, you addressed the fact that the minister's chief of staff called your office seeking advice on behalf of the minister. Would you say that's a normal thing that happens over the course of a workday?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes. It is very normal for the chiefs of staff of all ministers to call—whether it's me, my office or any member of the broader senior staff—about any number of issues to seek advice, think about and coordinate, depending on what the issue is, what next steps could be. We each have different experiences and we try to share them with one another. It's all to keep improving the way we do our jobs.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Yes, of course.
You've told this committee that the Prime Minister's senior adviser then sought advice from the Clerk of the Privy Council. Is my understanding of your statement correct?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes. Mr. Elder Marques was working with the clerk, as I understand it, and the clerk put him in touch with the deputy secretary to the cabinet. He said she was best placed to help do the follow-up on this. Actually, she took the lead on the follow-up because he determined and she determined that it was appropriate for the Privy Council Office to be doing this follow-up. It's why they advised the minister and his office to redirect the ombudsperson to the Privy Council Office.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
You've only spoken to this a bit, but I'm going to ask this question anyway.
You've stated—and as we've heard from current and former senior public servants at this committee—that the Privy Council Office was the appropriate authority and institution, and particularly the deputy secretary to the cabinet, to look into this issue, meaning not only to provide advice to the minister but also to do the active follow-up with the ombudsman. Is that your recollection?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes, and I think that can be seen through the documents that have been made public as well. The deputy secretary to the cabinet followed up and redirected. She suggested to the minister that the ombudsperson be redirected to her, and as she has testified before committee, she then engaged with the ombudsperson's office from that point.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Something really struck me in your opening statement today. You said you were advised that this matter should be handled by the Privy Council Office and that later you were told the Privy Council Office was unable to get further information to facilitate its work on this matter.
Based on the advice you received, is this where your involvement and that of your office ceased?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes, other than what I mentioned in my opening statement. Elder was giving me updates and saying there was nothing further they could find out and therefore nothing they could advise or act on any further. I talked to Elder about.... We both discussed if there was any way we could get assurance that this was not a safety issue, and then we got that confirmation.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
At this committee we've heard about an allegation in 2018, and we've also discussed what has since become public three years later. Is it correct to say that you didn't know details at the time, in 2018, and that in fact you only know them now because they have been reported publicly in the past few months?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
That is completely correct.
In the last number of months, there were different articles, and a lot of people were insinuating which one was or wasn't about the complaint that had come forward. It wasn't until a March news story specifically reported on it that we knew it was the complaint the ombudsperson was referring to. That was the very first time I knew anything at all about the complaint.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
You have testified here that the current system isn't working and that change is needed. That's something we have heard at this committee over and over again.
Is it accurate to say that beyond the work the government has done, further steps are now being taken?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes. I think it would also be fair to say that many more steps will still need to be taken. Many steps were taken in the first four years of this government and following the launch of Operation Honour. However, as I said in my opening statement, and as you've heard from the Prime Minister, the minister and I'm sure from members of this committee and others who have testified, obviously there is so much more to do. It didn't go far enough and hasn't moved fast enough, and that's what we all need to be focused on now.
Liberal
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
No, I haven't. I understand that you were discussing an invitation. I would have accepted to come earlier this week, but I didn't want this connected in any way, shape or form to the opposition day motion that was going on earlier this week. I was glad to accept this invitation following the vote on Wednesday.
Liberal
Yvan Baker Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
We have heard a lot from the Conservatives on this matter, but in my view they seem to be ignoring history.
Is it your understanding that the process followed here when an allegation was brought forward is the same as the process used under the previous Conservative government, specifically when a rumour was brought to the attention of Mr. O'Toole, who was then Minister of Veterans Affairs?
Chief of Staff to the Prime Minister, Office of the Prime Minister
Yes, to the extent that they went to the Privy Council Office, as I understand through testimony before this committee, which is how I have learned about these things as well. I believe in that case they went through the national security adviser, because he was chairing the selection process for the next chief of the defence staff. That made sense at that time, so yes, I believe they did the same thing that we did, which is report to the appropriate officials.
A significant distinction, though, is in the content of the information or extent of the information. We didn't even have a rumour to go on in this situation. I think there are ways to act on and follow up on rumours; we knew there was a complaint, period.
Liberal
Bloc
Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Telford, you mentioned in your opening remarks that you were first briefed on the situation on March 2 by Elder Marques. Is that correct?