National Defence Committee on April 30th, 2021

[Katie Telford]

Did I autopen the note? No.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

So the Prime Minister did sign off. That means that he followed Mr. Wernick's recommendations and there was no discussion about whether there was a contentious issue in General Vance's performance file, such as the complaint filed by the ombudsman. Is that correct?

[Katie Telford]

Let me just remind you what was to be or not to be discussed.

There was a complaint brought forward in March 2018 to the ombudsperson that he said existed to the minister, and we knew nothing else about it. We didn't know the nature of the complaint, the substance of the complaint or the details of the complaint, so I'm not sure what you would have us discuss.

However, the details and nature—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Why does an email dated March 2 mention—

[Katie Telford]

—of the complaint were not, because we did not—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Your time is up. In fact, we are down to six and a half minutes.

I did let you go a bit longer.

Mr. Robillard, you have the floor.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Telford. Thank you for your spontaneous presence today.

As we consider what has happened in 2018 and the many survivors who have come forward this year with stories about their own experiences during their service, are there any additional thoughts that you would like to share with this committee based on what you know now or thoughts you have had since?

You mentioned that you have thought about this issue many times over the past few weeks, and I know the committee would like to hear your thoughts.

[Katie Telford]

I would not claim to be an expert on what all the best next steps are, but I am someone who has spent many years now caring deeply and passionately specifically about these issues and about issues of supporting, empowering and protecting women.

Over the past five years in particular, since I have been in government and in this role, I have had the great privilege of getting to know a number of women in the armed forces, and particularly a number of the senior women in the armed forces, whom I've been able to have conversations with. I have learned so much from them, though as I said in my opening statement, I've reflected on how much more I need to learn from them and how much harder we have to work at providing them with a space where they can be heard and where actions can be taken. We need people outside of the system as well to force the change, because it clearly cannot all happen within the armed forces alone.

I have a lot of hope for the work that Madame Arbour is going to do, but we all need to stay focused on this in the meantime, including this committee, I hope.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Ms. Telford, I understand that you have had the opportunity to sit down with women in the Canadian Armed Forces and have had direct conversations with these courageous women. I can only imagine the powerful words they have said to you and the effect those words have had on you and the actions of our government.

I believe it is these voices that we must listen to first and foremost when decisions are made about exactly how to move forward and restore trust in the process.

[Katie Telford]

I think that's right. The staff who work closely with me know that there was one breakfast meeting I would never miss. It wasn't really a meeting; it was a breakfast. It was a working breakfast with some of the members of the armed forces known as the Awesome Women with Rank. They were the most senior women in the armed forces who got together and shared with me some of their stories.

As I said in my opening, I've reflected a lot on what I did and didn't learn from them, because maybe there were different ways I could have asked questions or created an even safer space for some of the conversations, or maybe not. These are the things one reflects on after the fact.

However, I did learn so much in those conversations. There were stories about what it was like to try to.... I know there are members of this committee who can speak to these stories as well, but I learned from them stories about what it was like to try to find child care on bases and stories about uniform issues. We talked about power and power dynamics within the armed forces as they relate to gender and beyond gender.

I've reflected publicly that I felt really honoured to be there. I have also reflected on whether, if I hadn't been a woman as chief of staff, I would have been welcomed at that breakfast. I knew that I was particularly privileged to be in a position that I could go into a room like that. I was especially pleased when one of them suggested—and we made it happen—to invite the Prime Minister to join them one morning. It's actually a day that I have previously referred to as one of my favourite days on the job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Robillard.

Committee members, if I am fierce with time, we might be able to get two complete rounds in, but it means I have to be fierce.

All right, are we ready? Okay. Thanks.

We'll go to Madam Gallant, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and through you, to the witness.

Did you personally let his signature go on those documents while knowing that there were open allegations against the CDS ?

[Katie Telford]

To be clear, Madam Chair—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm sorry; a yes or no is cool.

[Katie Telford]

I just want to remind you what we did and didn't know at that time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You've made that statement several times. I just want to know.... You personally let him make his signature on that at-risk pay approval without his knowing, and you knew he didn't know. Was it your decision not to tell him before he signed?

[Katie Telford]

I want to remind you about what we did and didn't know at the time, which is that we didn't know anything about this complaint. We didn't know the substance, the nature or the details of the complaint.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

But the Prime Minister was never told of any serious allegation about General Vance, so who made that decision?

[Katie Telford]

I want to remind you that while I took the information extremely seriously, the minister, through his office, brought it to my office. We then passed it to the Privy Council Office, which took carriage of it. We actually didn't know the seriousness or the nature of the complaint—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The Prime Minister was deliberating on the succession plan for the CDS, yet was not told of the allegations against him? Who made that decision?

[Katie Telford]

The performance management program is quite expansive and consults quite a number of people. It's a program that's in place for all senior officials across the public service, including deputy ministers and associates.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We know that, Madam Telford, and thank you, but while considering approving a pay raise for General Vance, the Prime Minister was never told of serious allegations against him. Who made the decision not to tell the Prime Minister?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, through you, I would just remind us of what we knew, which was we didn't know anything about the allegation at the time or the complaint at the time—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You knew there was an allegation—

[Yvan Baker, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair—