National Defence Committee on April 30th, 2021

[Katie Telford]

I will absolutely and directly address your question, but I want to start with your skepticism about it being a systemic problem.

I think you've touched on exactly the right thing in your lead-up to that comment, in that this is complicated. There was clearly not somewhere that this woman, whom we learned about in March 2021, felt was safe or appropriate for her to go in 2018, or whenever it was, when she first approached the ombudsperson—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you.

I understand. I'm not saying there isn't a systemic problem, but there are people in the system, and there are people who make bad decisions. That's why I'm asking you if you still have confidence in Mr. Sajjan as defence minister.

[Katie Telford]

I don't know anybody who is more passionate. There are a few of us who tried perhaps to give him a run for this, but no one is more passionate about inclusion. He stands for not only inclusion but bringing his lived experience to the job—

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, but I have one last question for you, and I don't have much time left.

[Katie Telford]

—and in this instance, he was faced with such an unusual circumstance, and his first step was to seek advice.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I understand that you have confidence in Mr. Sajjan, but I would like to be able to ask my question.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Madam Chair, on a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Do you have a quick question, Mr. Barsalou-Duval?

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Yes, thank you, Madam Chair.

Earlier, Ms. Telford, when I asked you how the Prime Minister reacted when he heard the news when you had a conversation about General Vance this year, you told me that he said, with his hand on his heart, that we need to find a solution to the problem of misconduct in the military.

Did he not ask you for details about the problem?

Did he not ask you why you did not inform him?

Wasn't he angry with you?

[Katie Telford]

I don't believe.... Some of those were your words and not mine.

That said, what the Prime Minister and I did talk about, when we first learned in March 2021 what the complaint was that was brought to the ombudsperson in 2018, was that it added to what.... It's going to inform our path forward. It tells us one more way, because we now know what the complaint was from back then, so it tells us one more way in which we need to tackle the very subject that this committee is looking into.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Ms. Telford, I do stand corrected. The same phrase, “Work with senior leaders of the Canadian Armed Forces to establish and maintain a workplace free from harassment”, does appear in the 2015 mandate letter. I just plead small font.

It's clear that none of the letters referred to Madam Deschamps' key recommendations or their implementation. You've mentioned a lot of initiatives that were taken since the Liberals became government, but here's where we are. On April 26 of this year, the Department of National Defence tabled a report in Parliament on Operation Honour's lack of success. It reported 581 reports of sexual assault over the term of Operation Honour, which was about five years, and 221 incidents of sexual harassment were logged in that same period.

We know that these incidents are under-reported. This means that currently, in the Canadian Armed Forces, incidents of sexual assault and sexual harassment are happening at least once every two days. I find the failure to tackle those key recommendations of Madam Deschamps shocking at this point.

What do we say to people serving in the Canadian Forces now? We're going to start another study, and there will be some interim recommendations. This is a crisis, and if this were any other institution, we would have seen far more extensive action by now, including replacing those who failed to deal with this problem.

[Katie Telford]

I would correct one bit, which is that there was, I believe —in terms of your suggestion that the recommendations of the Deschamps report weren't followed—some work flowing from the Deschamps report. There absolutely was.

Having said that, not all of it was done, and I think we all know that. I won't get into all of that. More of it needs to be done, and that is what I hope everyone is going to be doing. I certainly commit to working on this and making it a priority in the coming weeks, let alone months.

That's the kind of time frame we should be talking about—weeks and months, even though it is going to ultimately take longer than that for an entire system to change. As has been discussed at this committee, this is a systemic problem. This is not a simple or straightforward problem, as we know from many areas.

You mentioned the data and the numbers that have come out in the report. I have mixed reaction to them. It is always horrifying when you hear that women or men are not safe in their work environment. At the same time, collecting that data and having that data to inform the work going forward is actually a step in the process of moving forward.

Having data—

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thanks.

Mr. Garrison, do you have one last quick question, please?

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Just quickly, when mandate letters are issued, is there any follow-up later? Does the Prime Minister go back to ministers on issues like this one, on which he said, three times, to work on a harassment-free workplace? Has the Prime Minister gone back to the minister to say, “You clearly haven't accomplished what I asked you to do here”?

[Katie Telford]

Absolutely, there is follow-up on mandate letters. Actually, there is a unit within the Privy Council Office that was brought in under this government and under the leadership of the former clerk. It's the results and delivery unit. Part of what they do is keep track of work against these different projects.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you.

Mr. Bezan is next, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Telford, you decided not to do anything with this complaint. We know that the ombudsman offered evidence to Minister Sajjan. You could have looked at those details. The minister had a chance to take those details and act upon them, but you made the decision not to act.

The defence ombudsman testified here at committee, and he said that these were allegations of sexual misconduct. We know that there were emails going back and forth between the Privy Council Office and political staffers, and they all talked about these as issues of sexual harassment. That is the term they used, so many people knew.

Why didn't you tell the Prime Minister?

[Katie Telford]

First, Madam Chair, I would like to correct the member when he says that I did not do anything. I actually acted immediately upon learning of the existence of a complaint that I knew nothing about. I did not have this complaint in my possession. I didn't know the nature or the details of this complaint, and yet I acted immediately and I took it very seriously—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

But you must have known something, Ms. Telford. You said—

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Go ahead, Mr. Robillard.

[Yves Robillard, Liberal, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I am tired of not being able to hear Ms. Telford's answers. As members of Parliament, we have the right to participate fully in this committee, and I wish the opposition members would not take that privilege away from me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you, Mr. Robillard.

We'll go back to you, Mr. Bezan, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I hope that doesn't take away from my time, Madam Chair.