National Defence Committee on April 30th, 2021

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, as I think I already established with some of the other members of the committee, a lot actually was done in the last five years. There were a lot of steps taken right across the government, not only as it relates to the Canadian Armed Forces but specifically also as it relates to the Canadian Armed Forces and specifically related to the Deschamps report. As I already said and as this committee already knows, obviously not all of it was implemented, and more steps need to be taken as quickly as possible now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Garrison, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I think it's now clear what we've learned at committee—that is, that there was an accusation of sexual misconduct against General Vance, that there was no investigation, and that there were no consequences for him as a result of that.

We've also heard a lot about what happened in the intervening time to try to tackle sexual misconduct in the military. It's clear that those measures were ineffective, and it may have something to do with the fact that the person in charge had an obvious conflict of interest, because we now know he has been subject to multiple allegations of sexual misconduct.

We have a ministerial system of government here, but no one has taken responsibility either for the failure to investigate General Vance and leaving him in office or for the general failure to make progress on sexual misconduct in the military.

Therefore, my question really is, how can we make progress? How can we go forward? How can we give confidence to those who are serving in the military now that sexual misconduct will be taken seriously, if there have been no consequences for the senior military leaders and no minister has ever taken responsibility?

[Katie Telford]

I'm going to work forward through your comments there.

I just want to clarify that at the beginning of your comments, you said it has been established that it was a sexual allegation. I just want to be clear that what the complaint was and everything about it was established when there was public reporting in March of 2021. Some of the other things you said, therefore, were not reflective of things we could act on between 2018 and 2021.

In terms of accountability, I hope that I and the many others who have come before this committee are a form of accountability. I hope that the women and men of the armed forces who may be watching this see the commitment from me and my colleagues, and from all of you, on the actions we're going to take. I believe Parliament has very much been holding us to account and that the women and men of the armed forces also have the capacity to do that through the systems that are being put in place now.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Ms. Telford, I thank you again for being at the committee and for your willingness to show up today. I look forward to seeing the signs from this government that this is being treated on an urgent basis so that women, members of the LGBTQ community and racialized Canadians can all feel that the Canadian Forces is a place they can serve with pride and serve equally.

I thank you for being here today. I'll conclude my questions there.

[Katie Telford]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Thank you very much.

We'll go on to the last questioner.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Telford, I would like to get a final confirmation. You tell us that you were unaware of the sexual harassment allegations against Jonathan Vance in March 2018. Yet, an internal email from the Privy Council Office confirms that a response was sent to Minister Sajjan's office to indicate that there had been allegations of sexual harassment.

You are the chief of staff, and no one told you that these were allegations of sexual harassment in March 2018, yet the correspondence from the Privy Council Office confirms this.

Is that right or wrong?

[Katie Telford]

As I believe you just said, that is an email from the Privy Council Office or within the Privy Council Office. You've had members from the Privy Council Office, including the two top officials involved there, come before your committee and confirm to you that they did not know what the nature or the details of the complaint were. We did operate from the beginning, though. We acted quickly and immediately, knowing that was a possibility, and—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Ms. Telford—

[Katie Telford]

Yes?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Ms. Telford, I have in my possession an email from Janine Sherman dated March 2, 2018, which was sent at 5:09 p.m. This email was sent on a Friday at 5:00 p.m., as is often the case in such situations.

This email offers a response, and it mentions that this is a very sensitive case and should be kept confidential. It confirms that these are allegations of sexual harassment. It does not refer to misconduct, but harassment. The email is here and if you don't have it, I can send it to you.

Despite this evidence that could not be more tangible, you confirm that you did not know in March 2018 that a sexual harassment complaint had been filed against Jonathan Vance. Is this correct?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, I can tell you what I know, or what I knew, as I have tried to do over the course of this committee.

What I knew at the time is obviously different from what I know now, and it's different now because of public reporting. At the time, I knew that there was a complaint. I knew there was just the possibility that it could be this, because I didn't know any details about the complaint.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You didn't know the details, obviously, but you knew it was a sexual harassment complaint, because the Privy Council Office knew. Correct?

[Katie Telford]

Madam Chair, as I've said—my apologies if I didn't repeat myself the same way as I did every other time over the course of the committee—I didn't know the nature of the complaint. I did not know the substance of the complaint. I did not know the details of the complaint. I didn't have any.... I didn't know where the complaint came from. I didn't know why it went to the ombudsperson or why the ombudsperson raised it with the minister. I knew very, very little, Madam Chair.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

However, Michael Wernick knew this because he was the Clerk of the Privy Council Office. In addition, Ms. Sherman worked for Mr. Wernick. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

Thank you. The time is up.

Madam Vandenbeld, you have two minutes remaining. Go ahead.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank Ms. Telford for being here.

From one feminist to another, your commitment to giving women agency and to ensuring they are heard and listened to is something I've personally seen, particularly in the first three years of our first mandate, when I was the chair of the women's caucus. You have always provided the full support of your office to what women are saying.

I would like you to comment, in the last minute that we have, about what that means to you—what feminism means—and your own reflections on what has happened here.

[Katie Telford]

Those are big questions, but I will try to be very brief, knowing the time.

For me, it means, in all different forms, us trying to achieve gender equality, whether it be in the economic, social or security fields. It is why we've had meetings across all of those different areas, inside and outside the public service, to see what we could do to provide greater support to increasing the number of women in all of these different fields, including in the security and intelligence areas, and also how to make sure that when they do sign up, when they do put their hands up, they are provided the supports that they need and deserve, so that they can remain, so that they can be empowered, so that they can be promoted, so that another woman can walk in the door behind me.

It's a lot, but it's something that I believe reaches far beyond partisanship, and it's something that we can all work towards. It should be a really important objective for us all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right.

Thank you very much, Ms. Telford, for those inspirational final words.

You have our gratitude for the time that you spent with us today, and we wish you very well. Take good care.

[Katie Telford]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

All right. Are we good to adjourn, people? It is three o'clock.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Karen McCrimmon]

The meeting is adjourned.