Evidence of meeting #32 for National Defence in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was report.

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11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Good morning, colleagues. It's good to be back for the continuation of our discussion.

I'd like to reinforce the view, which I think is shared by all members of the committee, that the perspective of victims has to be front and centre. Victims have spoken in various fora, including the media and various parliamentary committees, and it is extremely important that their view is what governs our actions. Everything else is secondary. I want to reinforce the comments made by my colleagues in that direction with respect to that point.

Following the testimony of victims was testimony from experts, from policy leaders, from elected officials, from senior managers and our public service, from academics, and I've made the point, Madam Chair, in previous interventions, from other jurisdictions. I'll get back to that in a moment.

Before I do, before I get into some more substance that will be helpful to the committee in its deliberations, I want to take a moment to talk about partisanship. We're approaching the end of the parliamentary term. Partisan winds are blowing a bit more fiercely now than they were earlier in the year. I think it's important that we keep an eye on what the purpose of a parliamentary committee is, in its formulation, its past history and its past achievements. I made reference to the achievements of this particular committee in the last Parliament, on diversity and inclusion in the armed forces and also sexual misconduct in the armed forces in a previous report.

Partisanship is an important part of who we are. As elected officials, we belong to political parties, and, in many respects, it's very valuable to our democratic process to have different ways of looking at different problems and to make partisan points when appropriate.

This particular issue calls for as unified an approach as we can possibly reach because of its long-standing nature. Its harmful impact on current and former serving members of the Canadian Forces, and the Canadian public at large—victimizing and revictimizing—needs to stop. It needs to stop urgently, and it can only stop if we unify ourselves to the greatest possible extent.

In that respect, I have a suggestion for colleagues.

We have the House of Commons, and as Canadians will know when they watch question period, things will get partisan in the House. They historically have been partisan, and they should be. Partisan division is a useful way of highlighting problems, identifying different approaches and giving Canadians a choice in terms of which approach they should follow.

However, perhaps we can arrive at a conclusion that partisan energies are best directed to the House at large, and this committee, and other committees like it, should take a less partisan approach, should try to take the important testimony of victims, of experts, of elected officials, of others, and try to get to the same side of the table, facing the problem, solving the problem. It may not always work out, but to the greatest extent that we can, we should be non-partisan in our orientation. I'm hoping that with the few remaining sessions we have left, maybe this thought may bear fruit and we can get to a place where we can make some progress, in a manner as unified possible.

Madam Chair, I'd like to briefly take a moment of my time this morning to bring the committee to a report that I mentioned. We've had the benefit of the U.K. experience, as I mentioned. Particularly helpful to the committee is the fact that the U.K., in fairly short order, conducted a review of sexual misconduct and other inappropriate behaviour in the U.K. armed forces in 2019. I've referred to it as the Wigston report, conducted by Air Chief Marshall Sir Michael Wigston. Then, within a year, they went through an implementation and review process. That process led to a progress review that is published, entitled “Unacceptable behaviours”.

I want to highlight to members of the committee some elements from that report, and I do that for three reasons, Madam Chair.

The first reason, and I've said this before, is that armed forces like Canada's, which are subject to democratic control and are often working in alliances, be it NATO, UN peace operations, are encountering this problem with the same intensity, the same seriousness and severity, and are taking action right about the same time that we are. There are some cross-references in that work to the Canadian experience, back and forth.

That's reason one. It isn't just a Canadian problem. It's not an international problem but is certainly a multinational problem. It's relevant—not only the moral component—in the sense that sexual misconduct clearly is wrong, no matter where it occurs, but also in that it affects the operational effectiveness of alliances like NATO and UN peace missions and peace operations.

The second point is that I'm raising these experiences in part to encourage the committee to move forward. As my colleague Mr. Baker and others in past interventions have said, it's really time to see if we can come together around some key recommendations.

The message is simply that if other countries can do it, if they can put forward a report and an implementation review in a matter of a year plus, then we should be able to do something similar if we get our collective minds and political energies behind it.

The third reason is the substance of the conclusions, recommendations and insights these other countries and jurisdictions have developed, which in many respects, as I've illustrated, are actually helpful to this committee. It could accelerate our thought process, especially with the tight timeline remaining now, to see what came forward elsewhere, particularly in the U.K., with whom we have close alliances and operational alliances as well. As I'm hoping to submit later on, there is also the case of New Zealand.

But, Madam Chair, I would like to take the committee through some of the insights from this review of the Wigston report, which was published in 2020, just about a year ago. It was commissioned by the Right Honourable Ben Wallace, MP, Secretary of State for Defence.

Secretary Wallace wrote—and this is in the U.K.:

Today's Armed Forces is very different from the one I served in 30 years ago. It is more diverse, more tolerant and more professional. But, as Air Chief Marshal Wigston's 2019 Review found, Defence still has a long way to go if we're to become a truly diverse and inclusive organisation. So, one year on from the publication of the Wigston Review, I asked Danuta Gray to assess what progress was being made. Her findings show there have been some significant improvements. More people from BAME backgrounds are joining us. Diversity task forces have been set up. Policies to tackle [ignorance] have been tightened. But [the] report also shows some attitudes within Defence remain stubbornly out of step with the values and standards expected of a modern employer. Things must change quickly. We must rid our ranks of any prejudice that besmirches our reputation. We must ensure a zero-tolerance policy towards unacceptable behaviour. And we must improve our training, our education and our communication. Above all, we must make Defence a more welcoming environment to everyone whatever their gender, religion or background. That is why I have accepted [the] excellent recommendations in full.

The top-level message from the U.K. experience, the Wigston report, outlines and summarizes the nature of the problem and gives recommendations. The government committed to an implementation process, and then, immediately on the heels of that, a review process, which we can now benefit from and take note of.

With respect to the U.K.'s approach to implementing its report:

The Wigston Review highlighted that culture change would be necessary requiring authentic leadership, relentless engagement and consistent communication. The recommendations were accepted in full by the then Secretary of State, Rt Hon Penny Mordaunt MP, and published in July 2019. ... Following the acceptance of the recommendations, work began to establish a central team which became known as the Wigston Review Implementation Team (WRIT). Situated in the CDP's area,

—that is Chief of Defence People's area—

under the Civilian HR Director, it used existing resource primarily from the Civilian HR Directorate with one post provided by the [Royal Air Force]. The WRIT team was in place by October 2019.

So there was very quick expeditious action by the United Kingdom to recognize the nature of the problem and to move forward its implementation and a review. The review took account of the COVID impacts. It also referred to “re-energised momentum” with respect to the Black Lives Matter movement, and this may be important for members of this committee to consider.

The U.K. concluded:

The black lives matter movement sparked protests and a national debate in the UK about racism. During this period, one of the regular Defence all-staff calls was dedicated to a discussion on race. This discussion not only enabled personnel with Defence from black and ethnic minority backgrounds to share their lived experience, but it also revealed attitudes, which the Permanent Secretary confirmed, [that] have no place in Defence. The strong sense of feeling about the urgent need for Defence to make further progress, both on improving its diversity as well as changing culture and behaviour, led to additional momentum and energy to bring about change.

The Chiefs' Statement of Commitment issued in July 2020 set out bold changes which built on the Wigston Review and are an important signal of intent by senior leaders to change the culture in Defence. In July 2020, the one-year anniversary of publishing the Wigston Review was used to continue the debate on culture change. A further all-staff dial-in highlighted progress by announcing updated policy, new training opportunities and the launch of a whole-force bullying, harassment and discrimination helpline.

I put this to the committee, Madam Chair: In light of the work on equity, diversity and inclusion that I referred to earlier, which this committee and the 42nd Parliament undertook, the explicit linkage that the U.K. has made between the broader issue of diversity and inclusion and the issue of inappropriate behaviours, primarily directed against women, is an important one and one that is also worthy of our contemplation and potential action

With respect to the complexity of the issue, the U.K. acknowledged that:

Implementation has not been without challenge. The pace at which recommendations were initially implemented...was slower than expected, due to issues with allocation of responsibility and resourcing. Whilst there are a range of explanatory factors to consider, there was a noticeable shift in momentum from Summer 2020.

At the same time as implementing the Wigston recommendations, broader transformation programmes are underway within the single Services and within Head Office. These all recognise people as a crucial component and are therefore closely tied to progress on reducing unacceptable behaviour and creating an inclusive environment where everyone can excel. The different programmes have entailed a variety of approaches and timelines linked in to Wigston implementation work.

The report then goes on to review the progress assessment conducted in the U.K. It refers to training, including the importance of external third party training. Bystander training was also raised as a very important point. It refers to policy and makes a number of recommendations. It also refers to management information, communication, and, very importantly, leadership.

On the point of leadership in particular, the report states that:

Immediate steps were taken to appoint a [Ministry of Defence] Senior Responsible Officer (SRO) with CDP fulfilling the role.... The single Services and the [U.K.'s Strategic Command] have also appointed SROs, fulfilled by the Principal Personnel Officers in the Army, [the Royal Air Force] and UKStratcom, and in the Royal Navy by the Director for People and Training. Boards now include culture and behaviours as a standing item owned by single executive owners.... Some single Service/UKStratcom Non-Executive Directors...reflected that further conversations about the Wigston Review and unacceptable behaviours would be welcome. The [Royal Air Force] have created a sub-committee of their board chaired by one of the NEDs to oversee Wigston implementation. Within Head Office, this is considered at the Head Office Management Board and the single executive owner is MOD's Chief Operating Officer.

So there have been some very expeditious structural changes in response to the Wigston report, and the inside scheme from the implementation review is important for us to consider, especially in light of the minister's repeated statement that the time for patience is over and that the door is open for ideas on a complete culture change in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Madam Chair, I won't take the committee through all the recommendations that the implementation review has conducted. There is a section titled, “Looking to the future”. It's important to note that it accepted, as I have stated, the Wigston implementation recommendations in full. That is extremely important in light of the commitment to Madam Justice Arbour's work here. Getting good recommendations is not meaningful if the government does not commit to accepting them and carrying forward the implementation process.

In the U.K. they have done just that. They have implemented and accepted all of the Wigston recommendations, but the review also led to a number of additional ones. It's very important that, when one conducts a review process and finds out that certain recommendations don't quite hit the mark or fail to deliver the result that they were intended to achieve, additional recommendations be put forward and then also accepted.

Some of the recommendations that were made in addition to the ones I have highlighted over previous interventions are, on training and education, for example, to “provide a service readily available to inexperienced leaders to provide advice about dealing with unacceptable behaviours”. This is an issue that, in our estimation, from the testimony we have heard, affects senior ranks.

It's in symmetry with respect to senior officers in the reporting line. To give new leaders, inexperienced leaders, people who are coming up the chain, the resources to deal with unacceptable, inappropriate behaviours is absolutely crucial to making sure that the problem actually is solved.

Other recommendations with respect to the complaints process, new recommendations, are: the embedding of targets and commitments to the defence plan; aligning objectives throughout the organization; tracking progress up to the defence board level; adequate resourcing for this work, including to deliver the recommendations made here; increasing best practices; sharing across the organization; and considering using user-friendly feedback in finalizing changes to the service complaint system. These are also new recommendations.

It's important to note that not only was the U.K. mindful of the time frame required to solve the problem as expeditiously as possible, but it also came out with the report. It committed to implementation of the original recommendations. It then conducted a review within a year and, very importantly, on substance committed to making additional recommendations to fine-tune the first set put forward in the Wigston report. This is an approach that has proven it is working in the U.K. under tight time frames.

I call on my colleagues to consider that we need to do something very similar in Canada, under very similar time frames, to make sure that we solve a problem that is pervasive across so many militaries around the world, with whom we work closely. Again, it is a moral issue. It is simply wrong to have this behaviour continue. It is also an operational issue that reduces the effectiveness of our relationships and the way we operationally conduct exercises and important peacekeeping work, be it through NATO, be it through UN peace operations around the world.

We must get on top of this problem. We have examples telling us how to do it, including a granularity of recommendations that in some cases could be directly emulated here in Canada if the circumstances are similar.

I encourage my colleagues to set partisanship aside to get to the same side of the table in the remaining sessions that we have and to do this really, really important work. Survivors deserve nothing less.

Thank you.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Monsieur Robillard.

Noon

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank my colleagues for their comments on motion M‑58 that I introduced last Wednesday in the House. It was about GBA+, and I am sure that the motion could change things for our armed forces.

I would now like to continue along the same lines as before by quoting Dr. Maya Eichler's report on Operation HONOUR. She stresses the importance of taking time to deal with the issue from a historical point of view.

In Canada as elsewhere, there is nothing “natural” about women's history of limited participation in the military. It is the outcome of policies of gender discrimination that only began to be seriously challenged during the 1970s and 1980s. Before that, the military openly upheld a gendered military culture that defined men as the bearers of arms and women outside the sphere of combat. As such, gender differences and inequalities were emphasized and the importance of reinforcing them was seen as central to ensuring military effectiveness. The history of women in the Canadian military goes back to 1885 (the North-West Rebellion) when women first began to serve as nursing sisters. In the First World War, close to 2,000 Canadian women served overseas as military nurses. The Second World War saw almost 50,000 female enlistees in the Canadian forces. They were called upon to help relieve ‘manpower’ pressures and release men for combat duty. However, women received unequal pay for equal work, were limited to certain occupations, and did not receive the same post-service benefits as the men…As Pierson writes, the Second World War “set a precedent for tolerating the objectification and harassment of women in the CF”. After the war, women were demobilized. While women’s enlistment resumed in the 1950s, it remained limited in numbers and to the types of positions open to them. The Canadian military remained a male-dominated and highly gendered institution. Gender discrimination, of course, was not unique to the military, but reflected wider societal and global gender norms.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Excuse me, Mr. Robillard, can you raise your microphone a little?

Noon

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Sure.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much.

Noon

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I will continue.

Awareness of the need to end gender discrimination by the military began to grow with the publication of the report of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women in 1970. Out of its 167 recommendations, six specifically related to the military's policies towards women. The Canadian Human Rights Act (1978) and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms…lent further legitimacy to the cause of ending discrimination against women by the CAF. Beginning in 1979, the Canadian Armed Forces initiated a series of trials…to investigate the effects of mixed groups, in particular on operational capabilities. While the air force lifted all restrictions on women’s participation in 1987 as a result of the SWINTER air trial, the army and navy maintained the ban on women in combat roles.

The feminist movement played a key role in challenging the restrictions on women's full military participation. The National Action Committee on the Status of Women was founded to push for the implementation of the 167 recommendations of the Royal Commission. This included pushing for implementation of the recommendations relating to women in the military.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

A point of order, Madam Chair.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Can I continue?

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

I am raising a point of order, so I expect the Chair to give me the opportunity to explain—

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Yes, but I'm not interrupting anyone.

Madam Chair, may I continue please, without interruption?

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

It's a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Barsalou-Duval, and then it's back to Monsieur Robillard.

12:05 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am listening carefully to my colleague Mr. Robillard's speech. It is very interesting. I am learning a lot about the history of women in the army. Unfortunately, I see no link at all between the history of how women were recruited and treated and the motion we are debating at the moment, which is about whether or not there should be a government response to Mr. Bezan's motion.

Could Mr. Robillard explain the link between the two?

If not, perhaps we could go back to the topic we are discussing.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Madam Chair, I will say to my colleague once more that, if he had been following my comments in the House last Wednesday, he would have understood that my remarks are directly related to the topic. I'll continue and I will ask him not to interrupt me.

The National Action Committee on the Status of Women (NAC) was therefore founded to push for the implementation of the 167 recommendations of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women. This included pushing for implementation of the recommendations relating to women in the military. However, NAC struggled with its anti-militarist stance while it lobbied for women's full integration into the military.

The National Action Committee on the Status of Women explicitly did not advocate women's involvement in the military but also strongly argued that the military should not receive an exemption from the Charter. The struggle to end discrimination against women in the military was further advanced by the founding of the Association for Women's Equity in the Canadian Forces in 1985.

At the time, the Canadian Armed Forces had a gendered quota policy—a “minimum male requirement”—for each military occupation, based on a Canadian Forces Administrative Order. The minimum male requirement ranged from 100% in combat roles to 0% in the dental professions.

The Canadian Armed Forces asserted that in some occupations, especially combat roles, mixed-gender units were a jeopardy to operational effectiveness. This gendered quota policy was challenged by a case brought to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal (Brown vs. the Canadian Armed Forces). In 1989, the Tribunal ordered the Canadian military to fully integrate women over the next decade. The CAF leadership resisted women’s full integration into combat roles, arguing that their presence would undermine unit cohesion and that women were not up to the physical demands of combat operations.

The CAF had used implicitly gendered arguments about cohesion and operational effectiveness to support its case against women’s employment in combat roles. Once again, the Tribunal paid no heed to this institutional resistance. It ruled that an emphasis on equality can strengthen the cohesion which is so highly valued by the Canadian Armed Forces. Operational effectiveness is a gender neutral concept. The Tribunal concluded that there was no risk of failure of performance of combat duties by women sufficient to justify a general exclusionary policy.

As a result of the ruling, all occupations were opened to women, with the exception of submarine service, which was opened to women in 2001, and the Roman Catholic Chaplaincy.

As this brief overview shows, the Canadian military has a long history of banning women from combat roles and incorporating them into other roles depending on the needs. Canada's military leadership long resisted the full integration of women, citing fears that their presence would disturb the cohesiveness of fighting units. In this approach, the military was explicitly constructed as a gender unequal institution. Operational effectiveness, it was argued, required discrimination on the basis of sex.

However, pressure from strong feminist movements and from social and legislative reforms has pushed the Canadian Armed Forces to allow women into command positions.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Mr. Robillard.

Mr. Barsalou‑Duval, you have the floor.

12:10 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had the opportunity to hear the end of the speech by the colleague who spoke before me, but I still did not understand how it related to the topic we are discussing.

However, since this is not a point of order now, I will take this opportunity to also share with you what I would like to say to this committee.

I do not know whether members of the committee were listening to the news or reading the newspapers this past weekend, but I am personally quite outraged that members of the government are filibustering and preventing us from moving forward with the work of the committee. Did we not see General Vance playing golf with two senior Canadian military officers, including a military police commander?

I find it particularly disturbing that General Vance is walking around free, which is still his right, while the government is filibustering again and, more importantly, not saying a word about that. In fact, I have not heard any of my colleagues on this committee say a word about it so far.

So I'm very disappointed and very bitter, because this filibuster has been going on for weeks and could go on for months, while important work needs to be done.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Madam Chair, a point of order.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Go ahead, Monsieur Robillard.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Yves Robillard Liberal Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I would just like to remind my colleague that he interrupted me earlier when I was speaking. I was actually doing so in accordance with the Standing Orders, which he is not doing now.

[Technical difficulty ] we are addressing the public right now.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

All right.

Thank you, Mr. Robillard.

We'll go back to you, Mr. Barsalou-Duval.

12:15 p.m.

Bloc

Xavier Barsalou-Duval Bloc Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I am doing this in full compliance with the Standing Orders, since I am talking about the systematic filibustering of the motion, this darned filibuster that is blocking the work of the committee. I do not see how this could be more compliant with the Standing Orders when it comes to the work of the committee.

I see that, at this time, the government is more interested in preventing the committee from doing its work. In a way, this supports the climate of impunity that we see in the Canadian Forces. Personally, I find this behaviour particularly shameful.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

Thank you very much, Mr. Barsalou‑Duval.

We will move on to Mr. Bagnell, please.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

I thought Mr. Garrison was before me.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Karen McCrimmon

It looks like we lost Mr. Garrison.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

I want to first of all compliment Mr. Spengemann on his intervention, on the brilliant idea of the suggestions from other militaries that have solved these problems. The fact that the committees and the reports came up with recommendations that were actually implemented makes it much better information for us, to look at recommendations in the time we have available and on a very complex issue. It's always better when someone has tested the water first. I would like to thank Mr. Spengemann for really adding to this committee.

I would also like to thank Mr. Baker for his continued emphasis on the survivors. I think the military can best be improved by listening to their input and showing that we take it seriously. I can't think that any member of the committee would not want us to do that.

Thanks to Mr. Robillard for his motion in the House, and discussion of the history and importance of women in the military, which is fundamental to coming up with recommendations.

I was quite disappointed in Mr. Barsalou-Duval's intervention. I thought that after weeks, as he said, that the Bloc would finally put their attention on the survivors, on the cultural issue, which I'm going to speak to at length later today, on the cultural issues related to the military, and on the fear of reprisals that survivors have.

He raised an important point about the golf game, which is under investigation now. However, he talked about bitter disappointment, weeks and months of filibustering, basically by the opposition presenting motions that were counterproductive, first of all, for going week after week, month after month, since February, calling witnesses on an email that was anonymous. We didn't even know what was in it. We weren't allowed to know what was in it. This is when we have all these major problems and courageous, real-life victims from the military from Quebec and the rest of Canada whose situations we should be discussing, and the major, very complicated problems that we have brought up a number of times.

Then there was a motion that caused the opposition to continue to have effective filibustering, a motion that any member of Parliament who has served on committees would think unreasonable: that you only have two minutes. I mean, a serious issue that a survivor from Quebec brought up and whether it would or wouldn't be included as a recommendation, that a person would only have two minutes for input for or against, or to improve a recommendation on something that would have such a devastating effect on someone's life, is very disappointing.

I was of the hope that the Bloc would be the first party that would come on side to ask for the removal of the unproductive recommendations, so that we could get on with the major issues related to culture, to reprisals, to the issue of the chain of command.

It is really perplexing that the Bloc, the NDP and the Conservatives would not want a government response to help the men and women in the military through the recommendations that we, as a committee, came up with after so long looking at and identifying the major problems.

I don't think anyone in the opposition would disagree that the major problems are the culture, the fear of reprisals, the chain of command. Why have we gone to all this work if the Conservatives, the Bloc and the NDP do not want a response from the government to show the victims that they were actually listened to and to put some moral persuasion on the government to take action on the recommendations we come up with?

I have more to say on that, but I see Mr. Garrison wants to speak, and I don't want to prevent him from having that opportunity. I'm not sure where he is on the list, but I have a lot more to say on the culture and also the lack of ability to move forward because of unproductive motions on the table.

I will stop now so that hopefully Mr. Garrison gets a chance to speak, and then I'll come back with the other much longer interventions that I have.

Thank you, Madam Chair.