National Defence Committee on May 8th, 2024

[BGen Rob Holman]

I'm not the committee's lawyer, unfortunately. However, it's generally understood that for legal advice given to the Crown, the client in that space and the person who can make determinations as to whether or not to waive solicitor-client privilege are at least at the ministerial level and generally at the Governor in Council level.

It's not an undertaking that the CDS could give under the circumstances.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

The waiving of confidentiality would lie with the minister in this case. Okay. I appreciate that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you for your intervention, Mr. Chair. I hope you add the time that you just used.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I stopped your clock. Don't worry.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

On Tuesday, Global News reported that CANSOFCOM had a change of command without any public announcements. Why did CAF wait until after Global News reported that Brigadier-General Steve Hunter had taken over from Major-General Steve Boivin to announce the news?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

To correct the record, a news release was prepared. I'm not sure of the exact timing. I imagine it went out concurrently, but it had nothing to do with any particular news outlet releasing a story about it. There was nothing to hide there.

We are working on making a deliberate transition of changes of command, as is normal at this time of year. Because some of the promotions are still pending based on some government decisions, we have not released the entire general and flag officers plot yet because it hasn't been finalized. As we take a look at having a very deliberate transition, this is the first of a number of moves, as is normal.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How would you advise your successor to ensure that the CAF is more transparent?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I think getting out and giving Canadians an accurate picture of the security environment, the challenges we face and the successes we have on a regular basis is important. I will be advising my successor to come to this committee when invited, not that they would have a choice. It's about getting out and encouraging others to communicate with Canadians. However, it can't all be communication from the CDS. In fact, often our most credible spokespeople are our most junior ranks.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I have a few more quick questions.

In your opening remarks, you asked about Petawawa. I wanted to let you know that there's a little crisis going on there now. You mentioned that fitness was important, including fitness activity with a league. Despite all the regiments in golf, the entire golf course is being shut down. That's not to mention what it's doing to the children of deployed personnel who do not have transportation off the base to engage in activities. When you're retired, or even before that, look into that. It's a self-sustaining entity, and it's really important to that community.

We heard that some ATIP requesters who are currently serving faced reprisals from their superiors for simply requesting information. What do you have to say to service members facing this abuse, and what do you have to say for superiors who are currently committing this misdeed?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Any allegations of that need to be reported and investigated. My one comment is that this would be unacceptable.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Colonel Vihar Joshi told the committee that it would increase transparency to have all of the grievances come to him “as discretionary or mandatory” to receive an independent review and opinion before a final authority. We heard the opposite from you. Can you explain the contradiction?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

It's a question of capacity, speed and responsiveness. It's about getting to grievances that truly need to be reviewed by the committee versus those that can be informally resolved.

I know that General Simoneau has looked at this in detail, so I'll ask him to add his comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do so very briefly, please.

[MGen Erick Simoneau]

All I would add is that we truly value their input and we want to focus them on the important files. About 40% of the files are going to them, which are mostly on compensation, benefits, harassment and health care. That's where we need them the most, to have an unfiltered, unbiased point of view to offer us.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mrs. Gallant.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have five minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here to answer some questions today.

General Eyre, thank you very much for your service to our country. I wish you all the best in your retirement.

The CAF has undertaken several significant and far-reaching reforms under your leadership. I'm wondering if you can tell us which ones are the most significant as of late and which ones members would have already noticed taking place.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

That's a big question. We've undertaken so many change efforts over the course of the last number of years, whether it's on the reconstitution of our forces or growing our numbers. From that perspective, I'm very proud that over the course of the last fiscal year, we've grown both our regular and our reserve forces after three years of shrinking. I'm cautiously optimistic that the changes we've made in our system and continue to make in recruiting and retention are bearing fruit.

In terms of continuing to evolve our culture, we've discussed one aspect of it—grievance modernization. That needs to continue as well. Very shortly, you'll see a culture evolution strategy being published, along with a comprehensive implementation plan for all the various external reviews that we've had. In time, those will be addressed. You've seen a number of them being brought forward already.

The change is from a focus on regulating ourselves out of a problem to one that's value-based. What I mean by that is tied to the publication of “Trusted to Serve”. These are the values to which we aspire. We are not going to be able to put a regulation in place for everything. As opposed to sinking to the level of the regulations we put in place, we are aspiring to the values that we articulate. That is a significant change in approach.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I agree. I think you've said it well.

A while ago, on April 17, we had a witness come before this committee who talked about the fact that Officer X, who he didn't name, had a 14-year history of sexual misconduct within the forces and recently got a promotion. When we talk about the necessity of changing the culture, hopefully that is taken into account and bad behaviour is not rewarded but punished.

How can you ensure, or how can a future general ensure, that these changes are made and actually have an impact on making sure that this doesn't happen again?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

This goes back to my opening comments on the analogy of going to the gym. We must be continuous in our efforts to address conduct, address issues and address challenges that are not aligned with our core values.

I'm the FA for the specific case that you brought up. It's been kept at arm's length from me, but I'm aware of those allegations. It will be coming in front of me in due course. I know that General Simoneau is more au fait with that case.

In general, our society continues to rapidly evolve. You could argue that there's been more societal change in the last 10 years than in the last 50 combined. What that means for us as we strive to reflect the values and changing nature of Canadian society is that we have to continue to change and evolve as well. There's no end state for this. There's a steady state of change, continuous change.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I have one minute left. There's not much that I can ask and you can answer within a minute, but I'll insist that this is, I think, the biggest change that needs to be made. It couldn't have been said better by that witness when he explained that people are more afraid of being truthful, honest and good than they are of being bad, because the bad keeps getting rewarded.

I think that's the underlying thing that needs to change within the CAF. Do you agree with that statement?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

It's my observation that our members are now much more willing to come forward than they were in the past. For me that is one sign that we are making positive change. It's not going to happen overnight, but as long as we identify those pockets of resistance and keep moving forward.... We have to, as I said, keep moving, keep our foot on the gas and keep it as an area of focus.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.

Madam Normandin, you have two and a half minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It recently came to light that the Canada Border Services Agency lost the equivalent of 12,000 access to information requests during an information technology update. Has this also affected the Department of National Defence? Has the department looked into the matter, to ensure that it doesn't happen again?

I would like to know whether the Department of National Defence has taken any precautions to prevent a similar issue from arising.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, since I'm not familiar with this incident, I can't comment on it.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to come back to the grievance issue.

I have heard some stories. For example, non‑commissioned officers would say that a number of grievances had already been lodged against them, and that others could be lodged if people weren't satisfied. We sometimes heard this. However, I understand that a great deal of work has been done in this area since then.

Even if a number of grievances are lodged and handled promptly, won't a negative response or insufficient remedy encourage people to take grievances lightly?

The fact that a grievance doesn't necessarily frighten a military member is an issue. Will the grievance be resolved? How?

Is there anything to that effect in Bill C‑66, which we'll be studying shortly?