National Defence Committee on May 27th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Collins, you have three minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of quick questions for Chief Xavier on the cyber issues that have been referenced in the committee today and the resources allocated to the same.

My questions are along the lines of the disinformation campaigns that have been generated by Russia and others to undermine our institutions here in Canada and to undermine the government's support on many files, including our support for Ukraine.

Much of that disinformation is spread on social media platforms. It's meant to change public opinion, and it has in certain quarters of the country. We're seeing increasing numbers of social media messages from our constituents—people who have bought into these campaigns that have been put out by Russia.

I'm just wondering about the initiatives that CSE is taking in terms of combatting that with the resources that have been provided in the mains, as well as the DPU.

What role can parliamentarians play from an education perspective to get at those campaigns that we know are increasing almost by the day?

[Caroline Xavier]

Indeed, we do see misinformation and disinformation as ubiquitous threats that we know we live through on a daily basis.

As part of the threats to democratic processes report that we published in December 2023, we highlighted that misinformation and disinformation are going to be pervasive throughout all the various activities that we see, either from a democratic process or from a warfare perspective.

In terms of disinformation campaigns, the Government of Canada has put in place a series of campaigns that we have led on its behalf, including up until March 2024 of this year. That website highlights different ways in which Canadians can get involved in terms of better understanding how they can combat myths and disinformation.

A big part of it is education, and we work on that with other government partners but recognize it's a whole-of-society situation. To your point about the role that MPs can play, you can continue to ensure that you are also using information that you can see from a base of facts or use more than one source of information. That's what we try to encourage on the website. It's ensuring that you have a good sense of where the information is coming from and looking for more than one source.

One of the campaigns we ran was, if it gives you a bit of a rethink—if you are asking a critical question about the information you're looking at, or if you raise your eyebrow—you might be looking at information that could be of concern to you.

We really highlight and recommend looking at more than one piece of information. We have used our foreign cyber-operations to disrupt information. We've also sanitized intelligence to ensure that information is made available, especially with regard to the disinformation campaign that Russia has run.

These are various aspects of our tool kit that we'll continue to use to ensure that information is factual.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, it's been three minutes.

You have one and a half minutes, Madame Michaud.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Matthews, my question is about the production of 155 mm shells.

A $4.4-million contract was awarded to IMT Defence and General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems-Canada to develop a strategy to increase production of 155 mm shells. Last year, an investment of $4.8 million allowed us to increase production by 3,000 to 5,000 shells per month, or nearly 66%. So it seems as though the current strategy is just delaying the production of these shells at a time when Ukraine desperately needs them.

Why invest in this strategy? What are the expected results and when are they expected? Is the goal to eventually increase production to support Ukraine?

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question.

Yes, the objective is clearly to increase production, but I must add that we also want to start buying a product that's a little different and of better quality.

Yes, there has been investment to increase production, but there's also.... The investment announced in the defence policy update is about an investment in infrastructure to hopefully also start producing a different kind of round that is actually of better quality and better range, etc. That's going to take time. One of the things we have learned from watching Ukraine and the response of Canada and allies is that we've all given what is on our shelves, and standing up new manufacturing takes time. We are starting the process of investing in infrastructure to increase production but also to get an improved type of round. However, that will not be overnight. It's going to take months and months of work to get there.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have one and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What I was trying to get to at the end of my last round, ultimately, was the fact that there has been a great deal of money spent on outsourcing. Not as much is being spent within the department on public services and public servants. We're talking about signing off on $10.5 billion in terms of these contractors and so on.

There have been countless examples of P3 failures in the Department of National Defence. We have the CSE building fiasco and the Montreal supply depot. Now the defence policy update and budget 2024.... There is, again, billions of dollars for major P3s to provide military housing, for example.

What do you have in terms of evidence that these will be far more cost-effective and successful, considering that we have seen so many examples where that is not the case?

[Bill Matthews]

I have a couple of points here. I know we're tight on time.

First, the size of the public service or the number of public servants inside the Department of National Defence has grown, as well as spending on contracts, as our budget has grown. Both have been increasing. As we look to launch new products or projects, we basically look at the most effective way to deliver. Sometimes that is through public servants. Sometimes that is through contractors. Sometimes it's through a mix. That analysis, or options analysis, is ongoing.

We know that on things like housing we are in a rush to build quickly. Doing things the way they've been done in the past will not work. You will see a different approach on housing so that we can start to deal with that problem in an effective manner.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

Mr. Kelly, you have three minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'll pick it up right there. The budget contains zero dollars for new housing in each of the next two years. How is that a new approach? That seems to be exactly the same old approach.

[Bill Matthews]

I think there are a couple of ways here. New money, which will come, certainly helps, but you can also look at how it's delivered. There is existing money in the main estimates for infrastructure and for housing. Can we leverage that more quickly and effectively to generate newbuilds?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

However, it's correct that there is zero in the budget.

[Bill Matthews]

There is money in the defence policy update for infrastructure.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

There isn't this year or next year, though.

[Bill Matthews]

We have existing money for infrastructure.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay.

Canadians had the embarrassing spectacle of an allied ambassador telling a national television audience, “Canada has moved within NATO from being a bit of an outlier to being the outlier in the entire alliance.”

Now, setting aside the issue of there being no plan to get to 2%, I'd like to go back to what I think was Mr. Falk's question about how the 1.76% of GDP calculation is arrived at. Many observers and analysts are having a tough time adding up what's in the budget and the estimates and getting to 1.76% quite a few years down the road.

Can you tell us more about how this is calculated, or let Canadians know how they can check your math?

[Bill Matthews]

The quick answer is that it is on the departmental website.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Where? Be a little more specific, because people are having trouble finding this.

[Bill Matthews]

We will send the link to the committee members in the backup. It's basically forecasted spending, on a cash basis, compared against the forecasted GDP for Canada as calculated by the OECD.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

We haven't had a clear answer from the minister on the delivery of additional items that have been announced. We get a lot of announcements but no delivery dates. Will Canada's order of artillery shells—the quadrupled order announced in December—be received before December of this year?

[Bill Matthews]

We will continue to receive ammunition we've ordered, but you're....

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You didn't answer my question.

[Bill Matthews]

I'm getting there. These are long-term contracts to see the augmentation. I expect it will be sometime after 2024 before you see a ramp-up.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, so it will not be in 2024, as the minister told this committee.