National Defence Committee on May 27th, 2024

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are we at 40, more than 40 or less than 40?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I would not be able to give you the accurate number.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

General Eyre recently complained that the use of military personnel in fighting wildfires in Canada has become, in some cases, “wickedly wasteful”.

He went on to say that he had “made it quite clear to other departments that [the forces'] capacity to do what we did last year is not the same, especially with reduced readiness (and) increased deployments to Latvia.” He told senior officers on a video conference on April 23, “We're not going to have the same forces available...for the scale and duration of response.”

What are we doing to correct this, to make sure we can get back to a high level of readiness from the standpoint of doing what the Canadian Armed Forces are meant to do, which is be prepared to fight?

What's the long-term goal here on supporting domestic operations through Operation Lentus?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

You're 100% correct that the Canadian Armed Forces need to be prepared and ready to fight. That's the mission that we can do that others cannot within the environment.

That being said, Canada has always turned to its Canadian Armed Forces in times of extraordinary crisis to be able to support domestically. We have IRUs that are established within the provinces to have that mission going forward.

It is challenging, and last summer's wildfires certainly did see Canadian Armed Forces members deployed for quite an extended period of time. It was longer than we had previously seen.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

General, can I just ask a quick question? If you don't have time to answer, you can provide the information to the committee or answer it in a follow-up question from one of my colleagues.

Can you give us the current recruitment numbers that we have in the Canadian Armed Forces—air force, navy and army? Can you also do that from the reserves standpoint?

My understanding is that we're just barely treading water right now. We're still over 15,000 troops short.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Madam Lambropoulos, go ahead for six minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here with us to answer some questions today.

Minister Blair spoke about a $1-billion ask for cyber mandates.

Given the fact that in the future we will be seeing more cyber-threats and this is going to be a bigger issue, I'm wondering if you could share how exactly the money will be spent.

Can you specify how the money will be spent? Also, what is the Communications Security Establishment's role in responding to cyber-threats and cyber incidents?

[Caroline Xavier, Chief, Communications Security Establishment]

It's a real pleasure to be here to answer the question.

In the mains, we have been given an increase of almost $76 million. However, as was stated by the minister, the defence policy update gives us an additional almost $1 billion over the next five years, investing in our cyber-defence and foreign cyber-operations.

In terms of what we do as an organization, we have a five-part mandate. Part of that mandate includes the cybersecurity information assurance, the cyber-defence landscape. We take that role extremely seriously. We play that role in the sense that we do it for Government of Canada systems. We also pay attention to that for critical infrastructure, for the private sector and for anything else the nation needs us to do in support of cyber-defence.

We really work hard at promoting cyber resilience. That's where we do a lot of that work, in partnership with the critical infrastructure, with the Government of Canada, with the private sector and with municipalities and provinces and territories. That is part of the role we play.

In terms of the investments that are made specifically in the mains, $20 million of that funding is associated with the investment made related to the Indo-Pacific strategy, where CSE will play a role specifically linked to signals intelligence and the foreign intelligence that we'll continue to provide to senior decision-makers. As well, it's ongoing operations for the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security, which is our cyber centre and provides that role that I was speaking to, in particular related to information assurance and cyber-defence for Canada and our critical infrastructure sectors.

We see that our role continues to be important. We do see that cyber itself plays a role in warfare. That is why it is good that we have the foreign cyber-operation authorities that we have, both active and defence cyber authorities that are authorized by the minister through ministerial authorities and supported by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

When you say “resilience”, you're really talking about prevention, like ways of ensuring that our systems can't be breached.

[Caroline Xavier]

That's correct.

One of the things we really work hard at is promoting various ways in which people can protect themselves. We have the cyber.gc.ca website, which really does that in terms of looking at it from an individual all the way to critical infrastructure. No matter what type of person you are, whether you're coming in as someone who's very well aware of what the cyber threats are or as somebody who's less aware, that's how that website is helpful. That's in addition to all of the partnerships and information sessions that we offer to critical infrastructure sectors in particular, where we know that critical infrastructure is at risk because of all that we've seen from the various publications we've put out and what we've learned from the war in Ukraine.

We know that critical infrastructure is at risk, and we've put out many guidelines and publications with regard to this. We know that we need to continue to build that resilience so that when—because the answer is more when than if—an incident occurs we ensure that we can recover quickly, which is what that resilience really means.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you for clarifying that.

You also mentioned the Indo-Pacific strategy. Minister Blair also spoke about Operation Horizon, which I believe is tied to that strategy and to that region.

I understand the importance of Canada playing an important role in that region and in the conflict there. Can you speak to what Canada's military presence in that region will look like over the next year?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Mr. Chair, I can speak to that question.

As part of the Indo-Pacific strategy, Canada agreed to increase its military presence in the region from a naval perspective by having three deployments into the region over every year moving forward. That is for us currently, with the Montréal to be followed by the Vancouver this summer and then the Ottawa later on this fall.

In addition to that, there are capacity-building exercises with partners within the region that we engage with, as well as training and activities that also support the women, peace and security initiative. We believe those are important for all of us as allies and partners to be talking and engaging on.

These types of engagements, from capacity building to deployments with our allies, participating in exercises and sharing our experiences, are all military activities that you will see this year and in subsequent years as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Lambropoulos.

Next, we have Madame Michaud, for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.

I'd like to ask a few questions about Operation Lentus. It's no secret that in recent years there have been increasing requests for Canadian Armed Forces responses to natural disasters in Canada. It seems the number of requests is going up fast, and the figures do not even include requests related to the COVID‑19 pandemic. We can therefore assume that national emergencies will require the participation of the Canadian Armed Forces in the coming years.

The defence department's plan indicates that the forces will remain the last resort in the event of an emergency. Is that still the department's vision, even though we can foresee that Canada will be facing more and more natural disasters in the coming years? I imagine that the investments made in Canada take into account this type of operation in relation to natural disasters and the entire cybersecurity strategy to protect Canada from interference. In terms of military operations, what proportion of investments are made in Canada versus on the international scene?

[Bill Matthews]

I will answer your questions first, but I imagine that General Allen and Ms. Xavier will want to add something.

I'd say they might both want to add something. It's true that the Canadian Armed Forces are really the last resort to respond to emergencies.

We're trying to make sure that the demand on the armed forces for domestic responses is as manageable as possible. If they are needed, they will be there, but when you think about forest fires.... I will let my colleague, Ms. Xavier, talk about cyber-protection. Regarding forest fires, in particular, you have to look at a whole-of-government approach and multi-level government-type solutions. There has to be better planning, better preparedness and a leaning on civil society.

Once all of those tools are used, if there is still something to be done, the armed forces will be the last resort. They will get called, without a doubt. Once they are called, we want to make sure they are staying for only as long as they are needed. Once their critical work is done, they can move on, reconstitute and do other things.

In general, it also speaks to the reconstitution of the armed forces. The more numbers we have, the more we have at the ready and the more we're able to respond. However, it starts with a broader, whole-of-government approach with multiple levels of government, as well as civil society. This will determine how we best protect ourselves and prepare ourselves for a domestic urgency.

I don't know if LGen Allen wants to add anything.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

No, Mr. Chair, Mr. Matthews has pretty much covered most issues.

As the esteemed colleague said, we are there as a force of last resort when needed. Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces have always come when the call has come in a true crisis, as we have in the evacuations in the north as well.

Thank you.

[Caroline Xavier]

I'd like to add something related to cybersecurity.

We recognize the importance of added resilience, especially when it comes to infrastructure. It's true that if a hydroelectric or energy incident occurs, for example, it will have a direct impact on Canadians and residents of Canada. That's why we work very closely with the critical infrastructure sector, so that they understand what the threats are. We ask them to subscribe to our services in order to find out what the latest threats are, because we're in a position to have a lot of information. We also encourage them to contact us in the event of a cyber-incident so that we can give them the support they need. In addition, we meet regularly with a number of organizations, especially those in the fields of energy, electricity, finance and telecommunications, among others, that have critical infrastructure. We want them to become more resilient in the event of an emergency in a province or territory. Finally, we're working very closely with the provinces and territories so that they can provide the necessary support for this infrastructure.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to come back to operations related to natural disasters. I understand that the armed forces are a last resort and that it's not their priority. As one can imagine, this could have an impact on military availability, recruitment or personnel shortages.

The global geopolitical situation is certainly having an impact on Canada's operations elsewhere in the world. Is it safe to assume that, ultimately, the forces will no longer be available for domestic emergency operations, such as wildfires or floods? In other words, will international priorities always take precedence?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer in 30 seconds, please.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

You are correct. It is a constant prioritization of where the demand is coming from for the Canadian Armed Forces' services. What is it the government would like us to do? What have we made commitments toward? How will we manage crises that arise and come forward? What tools are available to us to support that moving forward?

The training that's often required, which is so helpful in natural disasters and emergencies.... It's just a formed group that can communicate and move itself to a location and be prepared to be involved in a domestic disaster response. That doesn't necessarily require the high level of readiness in training and skill sets that are needed—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're going to have to leave the answer there.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

In Justice Arbour's report, she clearly warned about conflicts of interest within the integrated complaint and conflict management office's structure. She made it clear that the office cannot investigate and provide advice to both the senior leadership and the survivors, and its structural position makes it an easy threat for chain-of-command interference.

The Ottawa Citizen reported last week on the horrific failure of justice by the department. Officer X, an unnamed navy officer, had repeated complaints filed against him and investigated within the CAF by military police, going back to 2006. An internal ICCM report then found that this information was bundled up with 14 years' worth of multiple allegations and MP investigations against Officer X that resulted in zero action. These allegations reached as high as the head of the Royal Canadian Navy, Vice-Admiral Topshee, without any action being taken.

We wouldn't even have known about this incident if the report hadn't been leaked to the media. That harassment continues to date. It's worsening for those who are coming forward and calling it out. For all we know, there are so many more horrific cases being covered up.

Can you tell the committee whether or not the department has reviewed this internal ICCM report and what steps have been taken to get justice for Officer X's victims?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly, I want to reinforce that any type of misconduct within the department is something that we take seriously, and there shouldn't be instances when members' complaints of inappropriate behaviour or conduct go ignored.

As it pertains to Officer X, I can't tell you that I know about the specific ICCM report to which you refer. It did not come to me directly as part of this process, but this issue has been looked at quite closely within the department.

I can't disclose exact details specifically about this particular case, because there are some privacy considerations that are part of that, but we take all allegations very seriously.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Deputy Minister, I assume you would have seen the report. What can you say about this?

[Bill Matthews]

I have not seen the report. My understanding is there's a process under way.

As the vice-chief has already said, I can't share more because of privacy, but no, I have not seen the detailed report in question. I'm certainly aware of the file, though.