National Defence Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Obviously, you are not the negotiator, I agree, but I imagine that the Minister of National Defence has some power, such as the power to repeal an order. You often mention that, in fact, non-public funds staff are not public servants in the same way as others who work for the Government of Canada are. However, repealing the 1982 order would resolve this situation.

Do you think that might be a solution? Does your government want to move forward to repeal the order and ensure that these workers become full-fledged public servants? I think that could resolve a lot of the issues.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, Kristina, since 1982, this relationship has worked fairly well for those employees. There is, clearly, a labour dispute going on right now. I think the best fulfillment of my responsibilities is to do everything I can to facilitate a mutually acceptable, negotiated settlement between the parties.

I will share with you that I'm not, at the present time, contemplating changing the legislation.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you for being honest.

I'd like to come back to military spending, the well-known request by North Atlantic Treaty Organization, or NATO, to have Canada devote 2% of its gross domestic product to military spending.

Last week, a letter signed by 23 Republican and Democratic U.S. senators was released. They are asking Canada to meet the requirements NATO voted for in 2014, that is to say to devote 20% of our defence spending to equipment that will modernize our capabilities, among other things.

Does the fact that senators from the United States are making such a public statement to put pressure on Canada have any effect? Does that put pressure on your department and your government to increase spending? Does it also have a negative impact on our relations with our allies when they see that we're not meeting the targets set by NATO?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

First of all, the pressure I feel is to deliver for the Canadian Armed Forces the equipment they need, the support for their people and the people they need to do the jobs that Canadians ask of them. I think that's my first responsibility, so that's the pressure I feel.

At the same time, I think we have a responsibility in government—and that includes all of us, by the way—to make sure that when we spend Canadian taxpayers' dollars, we create a real return on that investment for public value, so it's making sure that we spend the money well.

I have good news in that we will reach that 20% standard this year and every year thereafter under the current spending initiative of spending on new equipment. I think it's really important, first of all, for the Canadian Armed Forces to well define what its requirements are and for us to have robust procurement processes to get the best value for Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

It's always good to leave a question on good news.

Madame Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Minister, have you seen the videos of people in Rafah, screaming as they were burned alive in their tents yesterday?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, ma'am, I have not.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Then you did not see the images from the bombing that took place on the displaced persons in the camp where people were told they would be safe.

I asked you weeks ago about the upcoming testing event hosted by your department in Alberta, at which Israeli weapons tested on Palestinians will be showcased. Have you cancelled this event?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, and to be clear, that's not what we were testing. There were a number of participants, including Israel. We were testing defensive systems to defeat drone attacks if drones were sent against our armed forces. We were looking for the best technology to defeat those drones. There was nothing offensive about what was being tested in Alberta.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

However, a company that was allowed to participate.... Israeli weapons were allowed into Canada. That hosting of the event.... These weapons are being marketed as battle-tested on Palestinians. The owners of that company boasted about testing them on Palestinians. They boasted about this war being good for their company and that they're testing on these innocent civilians.

Children have been slaughtered, Minister. Your government is supporting that.

Can you explain how Canada can continue to support this when the Israeli government is committing genocide? Directly, Palestinian civilians are being placed into safe zones, and then they're being hit with 2,000-pound bombs on those safe zones.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I have to correct something you said, because our government is not supporting that. As a matter of fact, we have made—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You allowed them into Alberta, sir.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, with great respect, I think that you misrepresent—and I'm sure you do it inadvertently—what we were actually doing in Alberta. We were testing defensive capabilities and looking for the best technologies for the Canadian Armed Forces in order to defend our country and our troops.

You also said that we defend or that we support the death of innocents, and that's absolutely untrue. Canada has taken a very strong position with respect to calling for an immediate ceasefire, for the protection of innocent lives and for improving access to humanitarian aid into the region. Therefore, I think that your characterization of our country's support for those activities is not correct. In fact, I think we have condemned those actions and called for them to cease.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You may condemn them in public, but certainly, in terms of what's being allowed and what's happening in this country.... There were prizes awarded in this competition, Minister.

The last time you came to this committee, I asked about the Arms Trade Treaty commitments amidst this war. When I asked you if “Canada's interoperability and allyship are far more important than our commitment to human rights and international law”, you said, “Of course they are not.” However, you've taken no steps to stop Canada's participation in the Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jet program. You are making Canadians complicit in this genocide, and your defence policy update spoke about making it easier to procure within the American military industrial complex.

The International Court of Justice has ordered Israel to immediately halt its siege on Rafah. Will you commit to applying our arms treaty responsibilities today to ensure that our tax dollars are not supporting the siege?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

If I may, I think that conflating the tragedy that's unfolding in Gaza with our acquisition of a new fighter jet for the Canadian Armed Forces is.... Quite frankly, it is unclear to me how those two are actually coexisting or are in any way mutually supportive. I think there is.... Making sure that the Canadian Armed Forces get the best capability to do the important job we ask of them—defending Canada, defending Canada's interests and fulfilling our obligations to our international coalition partners in NORAD, in NATO and in other parts of the world—is our responsibility. We have to make sure that our people have the best equipment. There was a very robust procurement process [Inaudible—Editor] the F-35—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It is absolutely our responsibility. However, there are more options than just one. Certainly, being complicit and not abiding by our own trade treaty obligations is also a decision that is clearly made. It is a choice, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, we've obviously made the choice to acquire the F-35 after a very rigorous and long procurement process. Also, as I shared with this committee earlier, we are actually working hard and have money here to facilitate the delivery of the first 16 of those.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The Liberal caucus, of which you are a part, voted in favour of our motion in March, calling on the ceasing of further authorization and transfer of arms exports in Israel. We know that the majority of Canadian exports to Israel's military are in space and satellite technology.

Therefore, I was shocked earlier this month when I asked, within this committee, Space Canada and MDA Space what communications they've received from your department and the government on this. They have not seen any promised notes to exporters, nor have they received any communications from your department on their prospective sales in Israel. Will your government issue this notice?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, the people you were speaking to are not the people who are involved in those sales. It requires a very rigorous Canadian military export permit regime that is operated by GAC. It is Global Affairs that administers that regime. I'm advised by GAC that they have not issued a permit for the export of any military equipment or technology to Israel since the October 7 attack.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The fact that they have absolutely no indication—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

We're now on our five-minute round.

Mr. Kelly, you have five minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister.

On December 7 you told this committee that Canada had quadrupled its artillery shell order and that those shells would be delivered the following year, in 2024. On April 15 I asked you when this commitment to quadruple the ammunition order would be fulfilled.

You didn't answer the question, so I'll ask again: On what date will Canada take delivery of the additional production of 155-millimetre shells, particularly the M795 variant?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I recently went to the factory to talk to them about the delivery of existing orders. We also talked, I think very importantly, to those factories in Canada—I've met with them all now—and one thing they told us was that they needed to increase their production lines. They needed to secure—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

You had a chance to answer this question in April and you didn't. Can you answer it now, today?

On what date? If you don't know, just say you don't know and we'll move on.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, with great respect, it doesn't matter how simply you ask the question; it doesn't make it a simple question.