National Defence Committee on May 27th, 2024

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

With all due respect, in these estimates there are still zero dollars. Even if you're looking at working with municipalities, even if you're looking at working with the private sector, there are zero dollars from the government going into military housing, and our bases need to be renovated. We know that in the last two years only 38 homes were built for the Canadian Armed Forces.

In my last minute here, I just want to ask the question, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor] what you guys built when you were here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

In March, you were up in Edmonton, and you were asked a question about the CRV7 rockets that Ukraine asked for back in November. As a party under Pierre Poilievre, we asked the government to send them in February. In March, you said, “We are doing the work right now, to make sure that those munitions can be safely transported”, that it would be “only a matter of days” and that you'd move quickly.

Ukraine took that to mean that they could expect an announcement shortly. Why haven't the CRV7 rockets been sent to Ukraine? They need them now. Where is the NASAMS that was promised by Minister Anand 18 months ago?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer in 20 seconds or less, please.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

We are working with the Ukrainians with respect to delivering the CRV7s, and there is work ongoing. Perhaps that might be a question you would want to ask the deputy minister: the status of the utility and the safety of transporting those munitions to Ukraine.

With respect, thank you for the question on the NASAMS. Ukraine said that they needed NASAMS rockets. We don't have any. We went to the market to see if we could purchase them. It was going to take four or five years, so we went to the United States to expedite that acquisition.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Minister. This is getting way beyond 20 seconds.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I've already reported to this committee many, many times, we gave the United States $400 million in order to expedite that. They have placed the order. They've promised us that as soon as it comes off the production line, it will be delivered.

I'll also share with you that we heard very clearly the need for additional munitions—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

As important as this sharing might be, Mr. Bezan has finished his question.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—and it's why I provided the Germans with $76 million just two weeks ago in order to—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

We're back to Mr. Fillmore.

Hopefully, Mr. Fillmore, you appreciate that six minutes is really six minutes.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you. I'm a stickler for any rule you set, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you to you, the deputy and the other witnesses for making time for us today. I am very grateful for that.

Minister, as you know, I am very proud to represent Halifax, the home of Canada's east coast navy. The national shipbuilding strategy has been a tremendous economic driver across the country, but in particular around Halifax and Nova Scotia, creating thousands of well-paying jobs building the next fleet of vessels for our navy. We're seeing the results of that now.

In the last two weeks, we've commissioned HMCS William Hall, which was AOPS number four, into service. Over the weekend, I attended the naming ceremony for AOPS five, the future HMCS Frédérick Rolette. We have three more AOPS to go, two of them for the Coast Guard, and then we're going to turn our minds to building 15 Canadian surface combatants, or CSCs. Could you update the committee on the status of that work with the CSCs, please?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fillmore.

I'm pleased, first of all, that in the estimates that I brought for you today, they include our request for $1.28 billion for the Canadian surface combatant project. This funding is going to be used to support our work with industry to finalize the selected ship design. It also enhances shipyard infrastructure.

In fact, I have some very good news to share with this committee. Starting in July of this year, to ensure that the shipyard in Halifax is prepared to begin full production in 2025, that work will begin in starting to cut the steel for the surface combatant ships. This work, as you have said, is very significant in that it creates, I think, long-term and sustainable job opportunities for workers in Halifax. It also enables the Canadian navy to acquire the ships it needs to replace the Halifax frigates.

I would also take the opportunity, Andy, to point out that in our new budget 2024 and in the new DPU, we've included a substantial amount of money, approximately $1.5 billion, to continue to maintain the Halifax frigates. That will take place in shipyards right across the country and certainly in Halifax. It's a very important place where this work gets done. As the shipyard workers in Halifax continue with the construction of the new surface combatant fleet to replace the Halifax frigate, we are also now budgeting the money that is going to be required to keep the Halifax in service and enable our Royal Canadian Navy to continue to deliver on the missions we ask of them as we proceed with the important work of delivering a new and very exciting platform for them.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

That's fantastic. Thank you for that.

Can you talk to the committee about how the CSCs will support Canadian sovereignty and security?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Our intention is to deliver 15 new Canadian surface combatant missions. We have responsibilities, as you know, in NATO, particularly in the North Atlantic, but we have emerging and new responsibilities in the Indo-Pacific. As Admiral Topshee has shared with us and with the Canadian public, in fulfilling that mission with new capabilities one of the challenges that we have faced is, for example, that we have been sending three of our Halifax frigates into the Indo-Pacific since we entered into that strategy. Right now, for example, the Halifax is in the Indian Ocean, or rather, excuse me, the Montréal is in the Indian Ocean and making its way towards the Taiwan Strait.

Those missions are critically important in enabling us, first of all, to demonstrate Canada's commitment to the region, but also, alongside our allies, to stand up for that international rules-based order. One of the things we heard from the Indo-Pacific, for example, from those countries, is that they had an expectation they would see a more persistent presence of Canada's military in the region.

I have had a number of discussions with our Five Eyes partners, Australia and the United States in particular, about the important work they are doing and the capabilities that will be provided by the Canadian surface combatant ships. That is going to be an important contribution that Canada will make to do our part to maintain adherence to that international rules-based order in the Indo-Pacific. I think it will demonstrate very ably to our allies.

Additionally, we are taking on additional responsibilities. With the advent of Finland and Sweden into NATO, I think there is going to be, through NATO, a much-increased attention to our Arctic responsibilities in the northern frontier of NATO. The surface combatant ships are going to play an incredibly significant and important role.

Finally, with each of the things that Canada agrees to participate in in the Middle East, in the Red Sea, in the Gulf of Aden and in places right around the world, we want to make the navy has the capability not only to project our influence but also to defend our crews in those areas. The surface combatant ship is going to provide us with that capability.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have one minute, Mr. Fillmore.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Minister, it has been two years since Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. We have seen the Ukrainian people demonstrate incredible resilience in defending their homeland. In that same time, Canada has stepped up with about $4 billion in military assistance to Ukraine.

Could you give an update on the current scope of our assistance efforts and what impact they are having on Ukraine? If you have time, what does the future of our assistance look like?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You don't have that much time. You have 30 seconds.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I will stay within the time here.

We have provided about $4 billion in military assistance, but at the same time there's much more work to be done. One of the challenges we have faced in providing that assistance, as Mr. Bezan pointed out, is getting those deliveries done in a timely way.

One of the things that we have done is we have provided all of the spare ammunition, for example, that we had. We have sent it to Ukraine. As a consequence, Canadian stocks are somewhat diminished, and we have to replace those, but Canadian manufacturing and the production lines have somewhat of a limited capacity. We have now put money on the table through the DPU to invest in those production lines and money for long-term contracts to increase production. Recognizing that it takes time to increase that production and acquire those munitions, we have also made deals. I've entered into MOUs with the Czechs—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We are going to have to leave that answer.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—in order to acquire artillery ammunition, and most recently with the Germans. Almost $76 million has been committed to them so that we can acquire air missile defence systems more quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Minister, six minutes has become six and a half minutes.

Ms. Michaud, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Kristina Michaud, Bloc, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I want to thank you and your colleagues for being here this morning to answer our questions. I appreciate it.

I would like to hear your comments on the situation of staff of non-public funds. We know they're not full-fledged public servants, at least not like the others, but they still carry out activities on behalf of the Chief of the Defence Staff under the authority of the Minister of National Defence.

As you know, they have been on strike since January 15. I imagine that you're aware of their main demands, but I will repeat them all the same. These workers are asking for fair wages compared to those in the federal public service. They are also asking for the repeal of an order from 1982 that prevents them from being recognized as public servants. In addition, they would like a uniform pay scale on all military bases across the country, as well as job stability.

Quebec non-public funds staff strikers face two disadvantages compared to public sector employees. First, because of the infamous 1982 order, they don't have the same benefits and protections as public servants. So they are not covered by the Federal Public Sector Labour Relations Act. In addition, they are paid less than their counterparts in the rest of Canada. I'll give you an example of the disparity: An accounting clerk on the Valcartier military base is paid $10 an hour less than someone who performs exactly the same duties on a military base in Ottawa.

I wonder if you think it is justifiable for Quebec workers to be paid 30% less than their counterparts in other provinces. In addition, I'd like to know what you are doing or what your department is doing at the moment to resolve this situation.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, Kristina.

First of all, as you mentioned, these employees are not public servants, but I feel a responsibility for them because of the work they do on behalf of the Canadian Armed Forces and our members. It's really important and much valued by them.

When this labour dispute first began, I reached out and had a number of meetings with the public service union, including a number of conversations with their president. I also spoke to the CEO of the employer in this case and tried very hard to bring them together. I reached out and worked with the president of the Canadian Labour Congress, to try to get their assistance in appointing a mediator. We really felt that the best way to resolve this was at the bargaining table—that was my opinion—to keep the parties together and to keep them working on it.

I know there was some progress made in that a number of the bargaining units outside of Quebec resolved their contracts. I was, as I think you were.... We both shared disappointment that they weren't able to reach an agreement with those employees in Quebec, so we're going to continue to lean into it.

These are important people. They're not public servants. I know there is some disparity between the public service pay levels, particularly after the most recent rate settlement for those employees, and those of other employees who are not public servants but whose work is valued.

I think there's still a lot of work to do among those in Quebec. We'll continue to work with their union representatives and with anyone who will help bring the parties together to provide whatever assistance they can. I apologize: I'm not going to weigh in on what the outcomes of those negotiations are. Frankly, I'm not a party to those negotiations, as you've acknowledged.

I think it's important that we continue to do everything we can to keep them at the bargaining table to come to an appropriate and fair resolution for those workers.