National Defence Committee on Sept. 17th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay, let's get started, colleagues. We're already 15 minutes late and we have a vote that's going to interrupt us.

I would like colleagues to give us some discretion on the vote and we'll call it maybe five minutes before the vote.

Is that all right?

It is a procedural vote.

We have with us General Smith and General Ritchie. General Smith is well known to this committee.

This is pursuant to a resolution by the committee to get a briefing on Ukraine and the Baltic region.

We appreciate your attendance and your patience and anticipate that we will appreciate your future patience.

With that, we'll begin.

I just want to welcome Dr. Powlowski to the committee. Obviously the whip didn't talk to me; we are going to have to coordinate on ties.

General Smith or General Ritchie, you have five minutes.

[Major-General Gregory Smith, Director General, International Security Policy, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I'm honoured to appear before you today. As stated, I'm Major-General Greg Smith, director general of international security policy at the Department of National Defence. With me I have Major-General Bob Ritchie, director of staff at the strategic joint staff.

Thank you for this opportunity to update the committee on the situation in Ukraine and Canada's commitments.

Russia's war of aggression is now well into its third year. Russia continues to inflict significant damage and suffering onto Ukraine, leveraging its advantage in personnel and artillery ammunition to achieve incremental but steady advances across the front line. The armed forces of Ukraine have also inflicted significant losses on the Russians, but have paid a high price in doing so.

Ukraine's recent incursion into the Kursk region clearly caught the Russians off guard. Although Russia continues to make incremental but significant advances on the Donbass region, it has been forced to redeploy over 30,000 troops to Kursk. Ukrainian forces appear to be digging in and are presenting a serious challenge for Russia to reclaim its territory.

While it is still too early to assess the strategic consequences of the offensive, the incursion has upended prevailing narratives of Ukraine's inability to counter Russian military dominance.

This has boosted morale amongst Ukrainian troops, and Ukraine's leadership appears optimistic that others will see through Russia's supposed red lines. Ukraine has shifted from presenting the Kursk incursion as strictly to defend its Sumy Oblast to now integrating it into a newly announced “Victory Plan” that we understand is now being socialized with the U.S.

Despite the success in Kursk, Russia's air strikes continue to exploit Ukraine's vulnerabilities by successfully bombing Ukraine's civilian infrastructure, including hospitals, schools, grocery stores and apartment building complexes. The destruction of Ukraine's energy infrastructure has led to significant energy deficits and power outages, once again leaving Ukraine in a precarious position for the upcoming winter.

With sufficient support, Ukraine can win this war, but it requires timely, dependable and co‑ordinated aid from western partners to overcome Russia's advantage in size and resources.

Under Operation Unifier, Canada has now trained over 42,000 Ukrainian Armed Forces personnel since 2015. Increasingly, the flow of knowledge goes both ways, as Ukrainians have become experts in Russian tactics, techniques and procedures.

This spring Canada signed an agreement on security co-operation between Canada and Ukraine, in which we committed to providing broad, multi-faceted support for Ukraine. Under the agreement, DND/CAF will continue to provide military assistance, training and capacity building to the armed forces of Ukraine. We will also continue our collaboration, information sharing, research and development, materiel co-operation and support for reforms and more.

These efforts aim to help Ukraine build a strong and sustainable force, fully interoperable with NATO, and capable of regaining and defending its territory now and deterring future aggression.

The July 2024 NATO Washington Summit was particularly consequential, as it provided NATO leaders an opportunity to reaffirm their solidarity with Ukraine and set out long-term predictable assistance. At the summit, we committed an additional $500 million in support as part of NATO's long-term pledge for Ukraine.

We are also directly supporting the launch of NATO security assistance and training for Ukraine, located in Wiesbaden, Germany. Here we will work with allies under a NATO command structure to coordinate the provision of military training, equipment and logistical support to the armed forces of Ukraine.

Finally, we announced at the summit that Canada will allocate up to $389 million of previously announced funding to enhance F-16 pilot training through the Ukraine Defense Contact Group's air force capability coalition. This commitment will support training for Ukrainian pilots and provide equipment to support Ukraine's safe operation of F-16s.

The experience of delivering this military aid and training to Ukraine as it battles against Russian aggression has underscored a simple fact to me: Canada's support is critical, and we must do more to support Ukraine. The decisions we take now will shape the coming decades, and we must rise to the occasion.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, MGen Smith.

Mr. Bezan, do you want to go ahead, or do you want to...?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm going first.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you for your presentation.

Now, half of the TAPV reconnaissance vehicles sent to Latvia are unserviceable and not operating. No spare parts or money to fix them has been sent over. Half of the vehicles are broken—I believe there are eight in total—and unserviceable. There are no parts, cash or people. We're told there's a fifty-fifty chance that the war will spill into NATO countries, and Canadian soldiers are on the front lines with half of their reconnaissance vehicles operable.

What's the survivability rate of the women and men we've sent to Latvia?

[Major-General Robert Ritchie, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Obviously, this represents a key capability. We're working to furnish spare parts, and we're working with our allies to make sure there is sustainment for these critical-capability vehicles that are forward, empowering the mobility of our Ukrainian partners.

As for the protection of the vehicle in question, it certainly does not have the survivability protection that a more robust armoured fighting vehicle has, but those were the vehicles that were made available. Be mindful that other donations have been made, as well.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Other than having his budget for infrastructure cut in half for this year, the commander of Base Petawawa is having to close down several hundred sleeping quarters, leaving new recruits with nowhere to live. Black mould and vermin, together with faulty plumbing and electrical services, have made these quarters uninhabitable. There are another 7,500 troops who are going to cycle through Petawawa for training for Latvia for the next deployment.

Where are they going to sleep while training in Petawawa?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

Chair, I can't speak to the specifics of the 7,000.

However, with the new defence policy “Our North, Strong and Free”, there's a considerable amount of money being put into infrastructure. Obviously, there's a lot of work to be done, but it's recognized and we have a plan to start moving forward.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In fact, the amount of money allocated last year for infrastructure on that particular base was $21 million. The year prior it was $41 million, with a top-up of $51 million. There's no money for infrastructure or upkeep. The World War I-era firing ranges at Base Petawawa are actually sinking and can no longer be used.

How are soldiers supposed to learn how to shoot if there's no place to practice?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

Mr. Chair, again, on the specifics, I haven't been to Petawawa for a couple of months. Some would know it better than I do.

However, it's a great base. There is a plan to put more money into it and, indeed, into training. There are thousands and thousands of troops who have cycled through there. They do incredible training that has allowed them to be very successful in Latvia.

[MGen Robert Ritchie]

Mr. Chair—if I might add this—we prioritize three things.

One is readiness, which includes what was described in terms of preparing for operations and time on the range.

There is also modernization of future capabilities and our people.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There's no money to fix up the range and no place for them to stay.

According to NORAD, two IL-38 military aircraft were detected and tracked while operating in the Alaska air defense identification zone on September 14, marking the third such incident in one week.

What message is Russia trying to send us?

[MGen Robert Ritchie]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

We are actually aware of five interactions in the north, in partnership with NORAD.

The appropriate responses were taken. I can assure you that at no time did those aircraft pose a threat to Canada.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Given our government's record of defence procurements, plagued with delays and overruns, how confident are you in Canada's defence procurement record when it pertains to getting Ukrainian forces the equipment and weapons they need to fight back against the Russians?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

We have a very good story to tell of getting weapons in the hands of Ukrainians. My analogy has always been that when the war started in February 2022, everybody reached into the weapons locker behind them and handed that weapon to Ukraine. Depending on the size of the countries and their armed forces, they quickly ran out of weapons.

We now have $4.5 billion worth of weapons and military materiel committed to Ukraine. The team that works under me is moving that as quickly as possible to get it into the hands of the Ukrainians.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Getting that equipment into the hands of Ukrainian soldiers, or at least getting it over to Europe, and actually into Ukraine takes quite a while.

What about the equipment for Canadian soldiers? Where are the replacement orders? When are the soldiers here in Canada going to have equipment to train on?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

We're actually getting the equipment into the hands of the Ukrainians pretty quickly. We have to make sure that we're using taxpayers' money correctly. The team that I work with must make sure we work with other government agencies to get that money looked at properly, and get the contracts put in place properly, so that the money is used wisely for taxpayers.

We then get it as quickly as possible all the way across the ocean and into Ukraine, which is a war zone, so it does take a little bit of time, but we do a good job, and we do it as fast as we can.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'm looking at the equipment for our soldiers here in Canada in case they have to be deployed. After all, there is a chance they will be deployed in a hot situation.

What would you like to see from the Government of Canada to ensure that future commitments to Ukraine for weapons and equipment be expedited, so that they could be brought to the front lines in the most immediate manner?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

We're doing a good job doing that. An additional $500 million was just given in Washington, D.C. We're moving through that right now to give advice to the minister, and, again, to get those in the hands of Ukrainian soldiers.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Collins, you have six minutes.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing a portion of my time with my friend and colleague, Mr. Powlowski.

Welcome, Generals.

I'm going to take us to where the member opposite left off, and that is the logistics and how the support that we're providing is landing in the hands of those who need it the most, the Ukrainian military. There has been a lot of discussion at our past meetings, when you've provided updates on this same subject matter, about its not being there when the Ukrainians need it, and that they haven't received what we promised. There are many promises, and we continue to hear the nonsensical political narrative.

From the testimony you just provided, you made it very clear that it is landing in the appropriate hands. It's getting there in a timely manner. In your opening statement, you said that it's essential that the support we provide is timely and dependable.

Can you share with the committee what Canadian equipment has been the most valuable to the Ukrainians? As well, can you talk about the supply lines that make their way from the supplier, or from our stockpiles that we have here in Canada, through to Europe and into Ukraine for the Ukrainian military to use that support to the best of its ability?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

First of all, I'd like to characterize that it's not just me and my team who look at what the Ukrainians need. We work with the Ukrainians themselves. We're tied into an organization in Germany that I mentioned earlier, the SAG-U. We talk to that organization and our allies to see what they're doing. We speak to the Ukrainians in both Ukraine and here in Ottawa to make sure that's their choice, that's what they're looking for, and then move it as quickly as possible.

As I said, it's a lot of money. It's taxpayers' money. We have to make sure we do it properly and then transport it a very long way to get it there. Again, it doesn't go directly into Ukraine.

As a quick example, we're donating drones. This is a conflict in which... What we're learning, and what we're seeing in drone warfare is what I'll call “evolutionary”, but at the same time, it's shocking to see. Canadian industry has stepped up. We have committed to over 900 drones being used there. Again, we have to get them over there. We need to train the Ukrainians on how to use them, get them to use them, and then get the feedback on how that's going. Drones are just one example of success.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I see the lights are flashing. We have 15 minutes left.

Can we suspend in 10 minutes?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]