National Defence Committee on Sept. 17th, 2024

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I just have one question. Whoever's on the speaking list, Mr. Collins and then... Otherwise, I don't consent.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Well, consent is required.

Mr. Collins, continue.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

General, I've listened to a lot of what General Eyre has said over the last number of months just in terms of where we're at from a global perspective with our own military and some of the challenges that Canadians face, as well as those across the world, with threats that come our way.

He talked about how the biggest threat to our nation right now is disinformation. I know that a big part of the war effort from Russia is trying to convince other nations and their citizenry not to support Ukrainian efforts. We see that in the U.S. with J.D. Vance kind of leading the charge and former president Trump talking about pulling support for this effort and having it wrapped up by the time he's sworn in, if he's successful.

There's a lot of misinformation out there. Russia's actually paying people to spread that information. The U.S. Department of Justice recently released a report that found that some social media influencers in the States had received $10 million from Russia.

All that is to say that there's a lot going on behind the scenes that we're not aware of.

How are you combatting disinformation that's coming from Russia and some of its supporters—China and others—as it relates to targeting our military personnel, as well as trying to erode the faith that people have in our institutions here in Canada, whether it's our military or otherwise?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

Mr. Chair, I'll obviously restrict myself to the Canadian Armed Forces.

That being said, I think it's proper communication with the members of the Canadian Armed Forces, the chain of command, talking to them and their families at any time, telling them the truth of what's going on.

That's our key challenge: It's to communicate with a very large nation of people scattered across both Canada and internationally. It's just to communicate with them and tell them what we're doing to support Ukraine in this particular case. Again, I think we have a very good story to tell.

[MGen Robert Ritchie]

Mr. Chair, I might just add that the Canadian Armed Forces obviously remains ready, resilient and relevant. When we see these threats emerge, we over-communicate amongst ourselves with our allies and partners to make sure that we are all mindful of the pervasive threat.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'll cede my time to Mr. Powlowski.

[Marcus Powlowski, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Our Prime Minister recently stated that “Canada fully supports Ukraine using long-range weaponry to prevent and interdict Russia’s continued ability to degrade Ukrainian civilian infrastructure, and mostly to kill innocent civilians”.

Some of our allies seem to be a little more cautious about the use of long-range weapons to target Russian targets within Russia, outside of the Kherson region. It seems that perhaps this is changing, but the concern seems to be Putin's continued threats that this is going to escalate the conflict between Russia and NATO.

What is our assessment of the risk of providing long-range weaponry and allowing Ukrainians to use it?

[MGen Robert Ritchie]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chair.

Indeed, on the 13 of September, our Prime Minister did say that there would be no constraints on any Canadian-donated weapons and systems. In fact, the following day, the chair of the NATO Military Committee, Admiral Bauer, stated the same thing. Specifically, he said that every country “has the right to defend itself. And that right doesn’t stop at the border of your own nation.”

To the question, Mr. Chair, the M777 howitzers, which were initially quite prevalent at the start of the campaign, have a range of about 30 kilometres, depending on the ammunition used.

Some of these longer-range capabilities that have been spoken of can be more than 10 times that range—300 kilometres to 500 kilometres—and therefore they do provide the ability to strike farther in depth, although certainly not into deep Russian territory.

What they can do, though, is create vulnerabilities for the adversary, specifically for Russian assembly areas, command and control, bridges, railways and critical infrastructure. It can therefore create more of a buffer between the front line of troops and where they're mobilizing.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave the answer there, because we only have consent to go for this round.

Colleagues, I suppose we have to suspend while a vote takes place. Unfortunately, we don't have consent to shrink the vote.

Mrs. Lalonde, please go ahead.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Very briefly, I would certainly appreciate it if the member, Mr. Bezan, could reconsider his perspective. I understand that the whips sometimes talk to each other 10 minutes before or 10 minutes afterwards. This is about Ukraine and the efforts we're doing. I'm sure there's relevance to listening to the information from these wonderful individuals, people who serve our country and who have come here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

[Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

No, we're not adjourned; we're suspending, unfortunately.

We'll have to talk to you about coming back.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I'm so sorry. Again, I tried.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're back, colleagues.

We've lost some time with the vote. What I propose is that we complete this round with Generals Smith and Ritchie, starting questioning with Madame Normandin and Ms. Mathyssen. Then we will invite the Ukrainian ambassador to the table to make an opening statement. Then with the time left I'm proposing that we extend to six o'clock, so we should have roughly an hour—a little more, a little less. The generals have agreed to stay, along with the ambassador, and we'll continue a regular round of questions. I'm thinking that if we did a four-minute round as an opening, other people could get involved in questions as well, and hopefully we'll work this thing through.

Is that agreeable with everybody?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Mr. Chair, if we have until six o'clock, you should be able to get everybody in on five-minute rounds.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let's make a call when we get there.

With that, we'll call on Madame Normandin for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the two witnesses.

Before I get into asking my questions, please allow me a few seconds to put forward a notice of motion.

I don't intend to debate it today. It's just to give notice. It will be distributed by e‑mail.

It reads as follows:

Given that the members of this committee learned at the end of June 2024 from an article in the Globe and Mail that the former Minister of National Defence, Harjit Sajjan, had allegedly ordered members of the Special Forces deployed by Canada in Afghanistan to carry out an evacuation operation in August 2021 involving 225 Afghans of the Sikh faith, thereby favouring the evacuation of individuals on the basis of their religious or ethnic affiliation, to the detriment of the evacuation of Canadians and allied Afghans, That, within 15 days of the adoption of this motion, the committee invite the following persons to testify in order to answer the committee's questions: a. the Minister of National Defence, Bill Blair, and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mélanie Joly, as well as government officials, for a minimum of two hours; b. the former Minister of National Defence, Harjit Sajjan, for a minimum of two hours; c. the Chief of the Defence Staff at the time of the events; d. and any other witnesses the committee deems necessary; and that the committee reports its findings and recommendations to the House.

Gentlemen, I would like you to tell us about Ukraine's current requirements for 155‑millimetre shells. Where do we stand in terms of daily demand, for instance, the global capacity to supply them, and Canada's capacity to supply them as well?

If you have any indicators, even in general, I would appreciate it.

[MGen Robert Ritchie]

I thank the member for her question, Mr. Chair.

We're in the process of supplying those 155‑millimetre shells. We've just increased that from 3,000 a month to 5,000 a month. We understand that one country alone can't meet the demand of our Ukrainian friends. We are therefore working with allies and partners to meet the demand together.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'd like to hear what you have to say about something that hasn't been talked about much, but that, to my knowledge, can make a big difference for Ukraine. It's drones. I know that Canada has just joined the coalition to provide drones to Ukraine, which is led by Latvia and, if memory serves, by the United Kingdom.

Could you to tell us what that means for Canada? What is Canada's role as a coalition partner? Is there anything in the offing that would be interesting to know?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

I thank the member for her question, Mr. Chair.

I'll talk a little bit about drones. First, Canada gave Ukraine about 900 drones directly, at a cost of several million dollars. The Ukrainians are currently training to use them.

In addition, as was mentioned in the question, there is a coalition to provide drones, which means that a few countries are working together, a bit like the television show Dragons' Den. This coalition is trying to create a sort of cluster of drone experts to then give Ukraine exactly what it needs.

As I said, there are really a lot of threats coming from drones. Technology is advancing at a very rapid pace on a daily basis. This coalition is trying to provide the most modern drones that work well on the battlefield as the technology advances.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'd like to get into the subject of new technologies, which, as we know, are evolving very quickly.

The military industry, which is ready to provide new and useful technologies, complains not only that it has to go through the Department of National Defence, but also that it has to go through Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada when it involves new technology.

In the case of new technologies, this involves an audit that takes an extremely long time. Are you aware of that? Do you have any comments on the very long approval processes for new technologies?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

Mr. Chair, in terms of our direct contributions to Ukraine, I'm not aware of the work that needs to be done with Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada, but rather the work that needs to be done with another group.

It's the Canadian Commercial Corporation, I think. I will defer to those who know better on this one.

CCC is an important agency.

We work with it to draft contracts, since we aren't experts.

In terms of technology, we're working with the drone ecosystem in Canada. As I said earlier, we've already sent about 900 drones. We're also working with our allies.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What are the details of how the $500 million announced at the NATO summit will be used?

[MGen Gregory Smith]

Mr. Chair, we've advised the minister on this. We look forward to the announcement. We'll be able to announce exactly what we're going to do with that money. The announcement was made in July, and we have the money. Now we're trying to formulate our advice as quickly as possible so that the minister can make decisions.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If I understand correctly, the $500 million was announced by the minister before he knew what he was going to do with it.