Evidence of meeting #122 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was satellites.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Wouldn't one argue that the government has to put in regulations first, before all of that technology drives it and it's out of control?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
Yes, I think in certain cases, absolutely.
There was a question earlier, from one of your committee colleagues, about launching in Canada. We are the only Five Eyes nation that doesn't have domestic launch capability, and now we're working on that, and so that's great, and we're going to get there.
I think, similarly, with AI, we need to understand what regulation is missing, what regulation needs to be put in place, but I don't think that means, “Okay, don't do anything. Let's go off and do a study, and we'll tell you in five years.” I think it needs to be looked at at the speed of innovation, as I said earlier.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Are all of those guardrails being presented internationally in all of the other countries where we are clearly behind? Are there good examples of where they've gone and where we need to go?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
I would have to get back to you.
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
It's a great question. It's always a challenge with innovation, because we'll talk about AI, and two years from now we'll probably be talking about something else—quantum.
Again, with the space council, I think there's a great opportunity for us to have a dialogue with government in the context of exactly what you just said, laying out that framework of how we move forward without pausing. The innovation element of it is a critical enabler, but to your point, we also have to go in eyes wide open with regard to policy.
As industry, and I know as the space council, we're also ready to sit down and talk to government about how we actually do this. The challenge is, as you said, the world is moving forward with this, and we just need to find out our role, to your point.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
One of the dangers that I see in terms of the commercialization of space is simply that there aren't as many dialogues as need to happen in a larger, humanity-first capacity. We have certainly seen the dangers in terms of the United States, SpaceX, that monopolization. How do we ensure that we're not putting that profitability first, beyond what humanity needs, in terms of those peace-building agreements that need to occur within the context of space?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
A diverse and broad space industrial base is critical, absolutely. I think if Canada were to find itself in a situation where one or two firms held an almost monopolistic situation, that would be bad for innovation; it would be bad for taxpayer dollars, and it would hamper our ability to set the right guardrails and regulations in place.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Mr. Ford, I'm a bit concerned in terms of what we've seen regarding Calian. The Canadian Armed Forces have just signed a contract valued at about $1 billion for health care. Calian takes about a 25% cut for every physician and health care provider salaried on that contract. What's occurring in terms of the profits that Calian now experiences with its contracts regarding space?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I would say that, number one, I'm not sure where those numbers come from in the context of a 25% cut. If you look at our actual consolidated results, that includes not just that health contract but all of our innovation and technology and products that we sell globally, not just to the Canadian government. I don't necessarily support that comment.
In the same spirit, the health contract—again, I was just in Kingston today, before I got here—is a critical component to help backstop some of the capacity challenges the military is having right now, and that's the role we've been playing, whether it's in health care or training, primarily.
With regard to the second part of your question, could you state it again, please?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
She's not going to get a chance to repeat the question, because she's way past her six minutes.
We're now going to go to the second round. I'm sure she'll come back to you on the second round of her questions.
Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes.
October 29th, 2024 / 4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
How vulnerable are our satellites if they were to be hijacked or disabled by our adversaries via a cyber-attack?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
If they were attacked or disabled, they wouldn't serve the purpose that they were sent out there to do. What's vulnerable is the services that Canadians and the Canadian Armed Forces expect from them, take for granted from them.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
The geopositioning...? What sorts of things...?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
GPS enables every bank transaction, absolutely. Those are not Canadian satellites. We leverage satellites that were paid for and built by the American military to provide GPS for free to us, that we then leverage, but all of the satellites that Canada has built, the RADARSAT constellation mission and other radar satellites, provide critical information for us in terms of monitoring our earth and climate change and forest fires and all sorts of different applications. When those go away, it's very difficult for us to see what's going on.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay, so that's what happens if we're attacked. How vulnerable are Canadian satellites?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I think, from a vulnerability perspective, I would say, like all industries—for satellite, our communications infrastructure, power, any of the critical infrastructure—we have to look at it with the same light. We have to be doing assessments against the vulnerability and the capability for vulnerabilities, and look at how we best position ourselves to protect ourselves against those vulnerabilities.
I see this as no different from how we look at our 5G networks, our banking systems and our energy systems. I think, right now, the challenge, obviously, to space is that they're in space, so these things have to be designed and built in as we launch these new capabilities.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
How do we deal with these vulnerabilities? How would we defend our satellites from adversarial spacefaring nations or non-state actors if they were to mount a cyber-attack to deny the use of our satellite infrastructure?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
That's in working with organizations like National Defence and cyber with regard to building in capability as we design these satellites. It's something we have to do proactively.
As you know, the cyber landscape continues to get more complicated as we start thinking about AI and cyber and quantum and cyber. Let's agree that this is a challenge we need to be working on proactively with industry, the government and National Defence at the table—and our allies, frankly.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
How confident are you in our armed forces' cyber-defence infrastructure if an aggressive state or non-state actor were to target our satellites and the infrastructure that supports them?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I would prefer to let National Defence answer that question, to be honest. I think it's in a better position, because I don't understand all the elements of what DND is doing today to protect those satellites. I think DND is probably....
Do you have a position on that?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
No. I don't have a position. I would add that part of the reason Mr. Ford and I wouldn't be in a position to answer that question is that we don't have the top secret level clearance we would need to understand what all of the threats are, which is part of the challenge with innovation, because our companies could potentially be providing solutions to help mitigate against those threats.
We don't always know those threats, because they're classified. We can't get that classification level until we're under contract with the Canadian government to provide something, but we can't get under contract to provide something to the Canadian government until we know what we're going to develop to fix the threats. There's a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenario.
I don't think either of us could answer about the threat level.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Okay, so you don't even know if you're confident in our defence infrastructure.
Are there any capabilities, aside from the threat of cyber-attacks and anti-satellite weapons, at their disposal to deny or disrupt the usage of our satellites? Are there any other things that I haven't mentioned?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
Right now, the ones you've talked about, both on cyber.... Any kind of taking over a satellite or taking out a satellite, which is also a challenge...we have to recognize that those are challenges and threats. Building resilience into our networks, like we do on the ground and we do in space, is going to be critical to help counter that threat.
Again, it means working with the government, National Defence and our allies on how to best do that. There's no easy answer to that question, for sure, but I'm confident that with planning, we can get there.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Has the CSE ever established regular communications with your company or organization, warning you of any significant cyber-threats or vulnerabilities?