Evidence of meeting #122 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was satellites.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
In your interview with the Canadian Defence Review, you said, “We can't take our democracy's continued existence for granted,” and you highlighted the need to “invest in our ability to support global reaction forces, whether it be with respect to climate change or hostile adversaries.”
Can you expand on these global reaction forces and how space defence capabilities may or may not be affected by these issues?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
That's a great question.
To me, historically, when we've talked about defence, we've talked about maritime...land, sea and air capability.
I was in Norway not long ago, at the Joint Warfare Centre, because Calian is now training NATO. I was in Latvia recently. The clear message for all of us is that we have to look at both space and cyber as the new domains in the context of air, land, sea, space and cyber.
From my viewpoint, what I was trying to refer to there was that the problem is only getting more complex in the context of the pace of innovation across all of those domains. When you look now at war or war fighting, you have to address all of those domains to actually be capable. What I was trying to address there is that it's all of them. It's not just any one specific thing. All those things need to be considered now, as you look at a space policy and a defence policy.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
What emerging threats in the space domain do you believe Canada should prioritize?
How prepared are we to counter challenges such as anti-satellite weapons or space debris, which could impact both military and civilian operations?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I'll give my perspective, and then you may want to jump in.
I think this is where we have to be talking to our allies with regard to how we collectively—whether it's NATO or NORAD—build those capabilities in. I don't think it's a Canada-only solution. I think national defence is well positioned to work with its allies in the context of how we now plan the next generation of defence with regard to satellite and operations.
I think those discussions are happening. Again, my worry is just about the pace at which these are happening. I think that working with our allies on a joint approach is going to be critical to addressing that question.
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
I would just add that the technological capabilities that enable a lot of things related to this.... If you're going to go up and service a satellite, the technologies for that could also be used to dismantle the satellite, move its orbit or somehow damage it.
Those technologies are by and large very much on the cutting edge, and they're being developed by start-up companies. We'd therefore want that start-up ecosystem to be domestic, so that we can have that sovereign capability of at least certain elements.
That's not to say that we don't work with our partners, as Mr. Ford mentioned, but we do want to make sure that the technologies that are being advanced are not only being done in Silicon Valley and other places around the world, but also here in Canada.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
In your opening statement, Mr. Reid, you indicated that the space sector is rapidly growing and that the competitive domain with technology development for space applications is advancing exponentially, including with AI.
Your company's SpacefarerAI platform is a driver of the innovative Persistence mission. One thing you talked about in the launch of that project was proving that AI can be trustworthy and can be used in all sorts of upcoming applications.
Can you expand on that notion, especially as it pertains to Canada's national security?
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
I mentioned earlier the specificity of the kinds of algorithms we're talking about, so this isn't the kind of technology that could be adapted to something else. There's not that kind of big downside risk that we hear about in the media, talking about AI taking over, so to speak.
Rather, it's the idea that with more and more activity going on in space, and space being inherently a difficult place to operate—there's long latency for communication signals, limited bandwidth in communication and limited processing power—the more intelligence that you can put on a spacecraft, the more things you can do.
We're talking about commercial space stations taking over from the International Space Station. How are you going to build those? They'll be built with robotics. Are they going to be automated? They probably have to be.
Again, it's a huge opportunity for Canadian firms, and we need to make sure they are staying here—that they're in Canada to take advantage of that opportunity.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Mr. Ford, very quickly, your company has expanded to some NATO nations in Europe, and I would expect that the most pressing regional issue in eastern Europe is Russia's war on Ukraine. Are there space technologies in use against Ukraine that we should be concerned with? Can privately owned and deployed technologies present a grave risk to global security?
October 29th, 2024 / 4:10 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
We have to be cognizant that, in that dual-use mindset, there is commercial space capability that can be used in both the positive and negative senses in the context of Ukraine or any area. Space-based surveillance is clearly critical. We now hear people talking about weaponizing space, which is something we cannot take for granted. We have to look at a strategy to deal with that.
From my viewpoint, again, when I'm talking with NATO in the different countries, everyone is, frankly, trying to address what the next generation of space looks like. Canada has a unique role at that table, for sure, and offers the capability that we have, because we are uniquely positioned with our manufacturing and engineering capability here in Canada to play the lead role in this as we decide on the next generation of space.
All this is to say that it's absolutely relevant. Canada has a unique place at that table, and I think we just need to make sure that we rise to that challenge.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you.
Mr. Sauvé, welcome to the committee. You have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Louis-Philippe Sauvé Bloc LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Ford. I apologize for the somewhat amateurish nature of my questions, as this is my first participation in a parliamentary committee.
My comments will be at the intersection of economic development and national defence.
Tell me about your company first. I thought I heard you say earlier that you have a facility in Vaudreuil-Dorion. Could you tell us a bit more about the number of employees and your company's economic impact in the sector?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
The question was with regard to our presence in Quebec and Vaudreuil specifically, if I understand the question.
Right now, that unit is developing a lot of the work that we're doing with NASA with regard to deep space exploration. We've done antennas there. If you ever drive by, we have a 12-metre, full motion antenna by the highway.
Right now it employs about 40 people, and I see a great opportunity for that to expand as we look at some of the bid pipeline we have right now for new space capabilities. It's a key part of our supply chain within the context of space, and we're looking to grow that.
Bloc
Louis-Philippe Sauvé Bloc LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Does your company benefit from the aerospace ecosystem in Montreal? We know that Montreal is a hub for the aerospace industry, not only in Canada, but globally. Does the use of public policy to consolidate this ecosystem benefit your company?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I think so. Right now, if you look at our presence in Quebec specifically, we have Vaudreuil, but we also have people in Saint-Hubert as well, at the Canadian Space Agency. I would say that we have not leveraged as a company, frankly. We've been pretty independent, and we're looking at how we do that as we grow.
Right now we're getting the support that we need, but, more importantly, the key element of that, as Mr. Reid mentioned, is access to innovation dollars and continuing to grow our presence there with mandates, ideally from the Canadian government, to develop new space capability out of Quebec.
Bloc
Louis-Philippe Sauvé Bloc LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
On May 6, Mr. Greenley of MDA Space told the committee that “Canada has fallen behind from a military space capability perspective and is not engaging its industrial base effectively”.
Given that, by 2040, the space industry's contribution to the global economy could reach a trillion dollars, aren't you a little concerned about the situation outlined by Mr. Greenley? Are you seeing the same situation?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
The opportunity in space, if I understand your question properly, is significant in the context of the space economy. It is from the context of dual-use technologies from a defence perspective, and organizations like MDA, Telesat and Calian are playing in that economy.
I believe that Mr. Greenley is right in the context of his comments. As Calian, what I control is what we're dealing with at Calian, and I can tell you right now that we're excited by our space opportunity. We're excited by what we're seeing globally and, really, what I'm hoping and why I wanted to be here today is to echo that we would like to see the pace of our work with government speed up so that we can make sure that we're leading the charge and not following the world on this. Again, I think we have a unique opportunity there to do exactly that.
Bloc
Louis-Philippe Sauvé Bloc LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Like me, you read the newspapers and you know that the Canadian economy is suffering from a productivity problem.
Do you see your industry as a new driver of economic productivity, a way to generate value-added products that will not only strengthen the economy of Canada and Quebec, particularly through our aerospace industry, but also improve the country's defence?
If so, how could the government support your industry and help it prosper? That's really what I think committee members should be interested in.
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I want to reiterate that I absolutely believe that the space economy can be an economic driver in the context of Canada. I think it can be part, as we said earlier, of that 2% of GDP with regard to defence; I think there's a unique opportunity there. From a productivity perspective, I think we all face, as industry, the question of how to be more productive.
We compete on a global stage, and I would be remiss if I said that we have everything figured out. We need to be more productive. We also need to look at the creation of STEM jobs. We need to look at all the industries that need those technical and engineering skills. Therefore, it can be better, but I think we are very good. I don't want to in any way indicate that I don't think we're ready to take on the global competition we're up against.
Again, with regard to the space council, what an opportunity it is to look at how to engage industry across the domains of government with regard to whether space, defence and civilian-use cases prioritize those, and to make sure we're ready to step up to that challenge. We are ready; we just want to make sure we're aligned with you on those priorities.
If we understand the priorities and the timing, we will be ready. Then we'll work with you on other programs and innovation, the whole kit to get there. However, right now, we want to take a step back to make sure that we're ready to have that discussion with you with a clear mandate on what it is that we need by when.
Bloc
Louis-Philippe Sauvé Bloc LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC
Quickly, Mr. Ford, can you tell me how your industry benefits from our integration into the continental space, in terms of defence value chains?
Chief Executive Officer, Calian Group Ltd.
I would say that I think the more that we can integrate the value chains, as you said, and the understanding of the role that space plays in those value chains.... I would say that most Canadians and a lot of industry.... We have to do a better job of saying what role space has in everything that we do every day, whether it's communications, satellite operations or coastal monitoring. That's where, with regard to a space council, we want to be part of that discussion to make sure that everyone understands the role that space plays in the Canadian economy, as well as why it's so important to not take it for granted and to continue to invest in it, not just for today but for our future.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there.
Madam Mathyssen, you have six minutes.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses today for their appearance.
I want to build upon what was already asked, but I want to put a bit of a different perspective on it. Mr. Stewart has been asking about some of those dual uses and the security issues around there. We know that the government moves fairly slowly, unfortunately, in comparison to something as quick-moving as AI and that technology.
We've heard repeatedly about the waning international co-operation in terms of the space domain. The United Nations was working on agreements around the protocols on the UN committee on the peaceful uses of outer space. That's had trouble. We've talked about the speed of artificial intelligence and the potential security issues.
I want to ask this: How is that all coming together? Do you believe we're making enough space—no pun intended—or making enough room for those internationally recognized guardrails?
In addition, Mr. Reid, you spoke specifically about the limited technologies or the limited capacity of what your technology does. Are there government regulations placed upon the use of AI? What do you face in terms of that? Do we need to do better?
That is a very big question. There is a lot there—I apologize.
Chief Executive Officer, Mission Control Space Services Inc.
I think the topic of regulation is an important one. I think it's not often that you would have witnesses in industry saying that they want government regulation, but I think it is important that industry knows how to operate in what is largely a new ecosystem, a new industry. We need to know about liabilities. We need to know all sorts of different things.
An example would be.... We talked about the conflict, Russia's war in Ukraine. If there is a dual-use technology being used there, that may impact its ability.... It may be a target. It may not be used. How does that affect the civilian piece? We need to understand what the laws are around that, the rules around that.
Similarly, with regard to AI, I would make the case that we need to be involved in AI in space in order to make sure that international norms are set with Canadian values and that we can contribute to Five Eyes nations and our other partners around the world by having a seat at the table. We can do that only by investing and by being part of the development.