Evidence of meeting #124 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was evacuation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
It's 4:30, and I see quorum.
We have Minister Sajjan for one hour.
Minister Sajjan, welcome back to the committee. I know you're familiar with this committee, so we don't need to do introductions all over again.
With that, I look forward to your five-minute opening statement. Please go ahead.
Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of Emergency Preparedness
Thank you, Mr. Chair and colleagues. I've been invited here to speak about the inaccurate information published in The Globe and Mail. I can understand why committee members have questions. I would like to set the record straight here.
Let me take a minute to first say how proud I am of the work done by the Canadian Armed Forces and the public service, and of their professionalism and their courage during the evacuation of Afghanistan. I also want to say that I am a proud Sikh, but when I look in the mirror, I am also a Canadian; that is exactly what I see. I hope my record of military and public service makes it clear that my loyalty is to Canada and my fellow Canadians.
Back in June, as I was walking into the chamber, The Globe and Mail asked me a very specific question: “Back in August 2021, when Kabul was falling, why did you ask the Canadian special forces to go and try to rescue about 200 Sikhs around a temple there?” The fact is that I did not order the Canadian Special Operations Forces to mount a rescue mission at a gurdwara in Kabul, or anywhere else in Kabul.
The Canadian Armed Forces were not directed to prioritize the evacuation of Afghan Sikhs over Canadians, interpreters or others who aided Canada. As you know, tactical decisions are left to the chain of command on the ground. Also, to be clear, Afghan Sikhs and Hindus were part of Canada's policy to protect vulnerable communities. The policy included women MPs, activists, journalists, members of the LGBTQIA+ community and persecuted religious minorities.
You will remember that, starting in the spring of 2018, there was an increase in targeted violence against religious minorities in Afghanistan. These troubling events spurred members of Parliament and civil society to call for a special program to help persecuted religious minorities, and Sikhs and Hindus in particular. Twenty-five Canadian members of Parliament signed a letter to the then Minister of Immigration, calling for a special program for Afghan Sikh and Hindu refugees so that they could be brought safely into Canada. It was signed by members of the Conservative Party of Canada, the New Democratic Party of Canada and the Green Party of Canada. The letter referred to—and I'll just summarize a bit—the murder of 25 Sikhs, including a four-year-old child, during a terror attack on a Kabul gurdwara; the assassination of 19 leaders of the Afghan Sikh community; and the kidnapping of a 13-year-old girl whose father had previously been murdered by terrorists.
I also would like to quote from that letter, which read, “In light of the immediate threat faced by these communities, we urge you to create”—speaking to the then Minister of Immigration—“a special program for Afghan Sikh and Hindu refugees...so that they can be brought to safety in Canada.”
I can assure you, Mr. Chair, the government was already at work. We announced special immigration measures to offer a pathway to citizenship for Afghans at risk due to their association with Canada. We deployed troops to Afghanistan and then began evacuation from Kabul. Later, we expanded efforts to bring members of vulnerable communities to Canada through a humanitarian evacuation. This included women leaders, human rights defenders, journalists, LGBTQIA+ individuals and persecuted religious minorities, which included Sikhs and Hindus.
This government policy was discussed over the months leading up to the fall of Kabul. It was broadly supported and included Sikhs and Hindus. One organization of Canadians working in partnership with our government was the Manmeet Singh Bhullar Foundation. This Canadian NGO was founded in honour of Manmeet Singh Bhullar, a former Conservative Alberta government minister and MLA who was tragically stuck and killed by a truck on a highway as he was helping a stranded motorist. In 2020, the foundation became an official partner of our government.
The foundation worked to identify vulnerable Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan to provide their names to IRCC to facilitate their immigration to Canada. As the situation in Afghanistan worsened, officials at IRCC and the NGO shifted their work from facilitating the immigration of these persecuted minorities to facilitating their evacuation from Kabul.
Toward the end of August, the NGO contacted me about a group of more than 200 Afghan Sikhs and Hindus who had been approved by IRCC for evacuation to Canada. The group was struggling to link up with Canadian soldiers and officials on the ground in Kabul. The NGO provided me with information about the location and status of the group. When I received this information from the NGO, I passed it on to the chain of command. I had a responsibility to do so.
The government and military officials on the ground contacted the group, who were already outside the gates of the airport, which is important to note. The group were instructed to make their way to a specific location near the airport to link up with the Canadian soldiers. Unfortunately, the link-up never happened.
To conclude, I want to emphasize that I did not order a rescue mission. I passed along information from a Canadian NGO partner about a group of vulnerable people who were cleared for humanitarian evacuation to Canada. I followed and executed government policy.
For the record, I would like to submit as evidence my initial statement to the Globe, the letter from the opposition MPs and the news release from when we expanded the resettlement program to bring more Afghans to safety, for this committee to refer to. I have them right here.
I would be happy to take your questions as well.
Harjit S. Sajjan LiberalMinister of Emergency Preparedness
I believe two of the three items are unilingual, so we can't distribute them to the members. Once they get translated, we can distribute them.
With that, we'll go to our six-minute round.
Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.
James Bezan Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Minister, welcome back to the committee.
Minister, what date exactly did the Canadian Armed Forces operation take place to escort Afghans to the airport in Kabul?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
What time are you referring to?
Mr. James Bezan:
The specific dates of the operation, when everything was all falling apart.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
On the actual evacuation when the Canadian Armed Forces were requested.... We had a request for assistance from Global Affairs on July 27. On July 30 we had approval to deploy to Afghanistan.
Mr. James Bezan:
When was the last day of operations in Afghanistan?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
Are you asking about the last day of operations for the evacuation, or the last day of operations?
Mr. James Bezan:
I'm asking about the evacuation.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
It was August 27.
Mr. James Bezan:
Okay.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
I would say that the last Canadian Armed Forces left at that time. I don't remember the exact date when the actual flight with the last people left, but the official date was the 27th.
Mr. James Bezan:
Okay.
You were quoted as saying in the Globe story you were talking about that you “provided direction to the Canadian Armed Forces, through the appropriate chain of command”. You've said that again in your testimony today.
Who at the Canadian Armed Forces did you give direction to?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
Are you talking about the Globe article or my statement?
Mr. James Bezan:
I'm talking about your statement.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
You're talking about my current statement.
Yes.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Through the chain of command, it's the chief of the defence staff.
Mr. James Bezan:
Is it only to the chief of the defence staff, or do you talk to others as well?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
No, when it comes to.... As you know, the chief of the defence staff is the person the Minister of Defence works through, but there are always staff who are always there.
Mr. James Bezan:
Okay. Was he the very first person you talked to in the Canadian Armed Forces?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
To be honest, there are people in the room. When it comes to the information, it's within a large group, as you know. As a former parliamentary secretary, you know the number of people who are there.
Mr. James Bezan:
Did you inform the Prime Minister's Office before you gave this direction to the Canadian Armed Forces?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
No. I was working directly with the evacuation at that time.
Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, CPC
James Bezan
Okay.
Do you see that there is any difference between giving a ministerial direction versus giving a command?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
What are you referring to here?
Okay.
Do you think the Canadian Armed Forces interpreted it that you said, “This is what's going to happen,” and that it was more of a command, or was it just you saying, “I think we should do this”?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
First, that's—
Mr. James Bezan:
I mean in your conversations with the chain of command.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
Let's talk about what in particular you're talking about here when it comes to direction and command; it's of what...?
Mr. James Bezan:
The command for the evacuation of Canadians, Afghans and other minority groups within Afghanistan.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
If you mean the overall evacuation, yes, that was the direction that was given.
Mr. James Bezan:
Okay, and that would have been interpreted as a command from the Minister of National Defence.
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
Of the.... Yes, the direction obviously gives the authority for the Canadian Armed Forces to work.
Okay.
Did your former chief of staff, George Young, participate in these meetings and also help in making sure the directive was carried out?
Hon. Harjit S. Sajjan:
I had a staff, and yes, the chief of staff of my staff was always there to work. Yes.
Mr. James Bezan:
Would George Young have been your chief of staff at that time?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Are you aware that today the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration issued a letter to the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship, asking him to further investigate the role that Mr. Young played in the fraudulent use of documents and templates from Global Affairs Canada in the evacuation of Kabul?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
First of all, I just heard that the report came out. I haven't read it. I'm here to answer questions regarding the motion that all of you approved here.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
On what exact date, then, was your chief of the defence staff, who was General Eyre at the time, made aware of this decision—the exact, firm date?
Liberal
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'm talking about the decision to move ahead with the evacuation of Kabul and—
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
As I stated here, we had received a request for assistance on July 27, and on July 30 the direction and authority were given for CAF to deploy to Afghanistan to support.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Is that when the direction was given as to the priority list of Canadians and other Afghans who were to be taken out?
Liberal
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
When were CANSOFCOM special operation forces...? Were they in the room on that very day, when you gave that direction?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Bezan, you know how that works, having worked in defence. It's not that CANSOFCOM is actually there. You work through the chief of the defence staff and the chain of command.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Did you have a personal conversation at all with the commanders at CANSOFCOM at that time?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I did not have a direct conversation with the commander of CANSOFCOM, no.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
What about at any time between the time that the order came down on July 30, and August 27?
Liberal
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Can you give us the exact specifics? Is there a written directive, or was it just a verbal directive that you gave?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Once we received the request for assistance.... I don't have the exact letter of the direction of authority that I gave to the Canadian Armed Forces at that time.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Do you know, then, at what point in time special operations forces and JTF 2 were given the command that they were to leave the Kabul airport, go outside the wire and take on that extra risk?