National Defence Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Somebody called me directly.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

Did you receive communications from other groups? I am thinking in particular of groups that were in the green zone. Off the top of my head, I believe it was the interpreters who were identified as being at risk.

Did you receive information about other groups?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't understand the “green zone” question.

In terms of different groups, I did, absolutely. Anybody who had my number was calling me at that time. Again, I had the responsibility to forward any information that was provided to me. I will also note that my staff was heavily engaged, so my military email at that time was extensively used. Part of it was public.

I believe I was receiving thousands of emails at that time, and Global Affairs actually received close to a million emails at that time as well. There was a whole team triaging information and feeding it into the entire system, so that the Canadian Armed Forces could have as much accurate information as possible.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

From what I understand, you received information from the non-governmental organization Aman Lara informing you that interpreters were available about five kilometres from the airport. They were identified as priority evacuations.

Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Any information I received was always forwarded.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

How was the information sent to JTF2, in terms of the location of the meeting point?

Was General Eyre contacted by text, email or phone call?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I should clarify how we conducted the operation.

With a sensitive operation like this, I was speaking in secure communication during our briefings. That's when we would have daily briefings, and we would be able to pass along information.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

So the information about the meeting point was conveyed at an official meeting with General Eyre.

Is that correct?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Which rendezvous point are you referring to?

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

The organization that informed you of the presence of members of the Sikh community and gave you their names also informed you of the location where they were to meet with members of JTF2.

How did you let JTF2 know where these people were?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

There was no direct communication from me, informing.... I want to make that very clear. The information that was received was about 200 people who were already at the airport. The communication that took place was actually.... How they communicated among each other...that was done on the ground.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In terms of the evacuation, do you know if other people had received information related to meeting points?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This wasn't the rendezvous point that everybody keeps referring to. The Canadian Armed Forces had a plan for how to meet people. Regardless of which group and how they communicated, they were communicating with people about where to meet them, and that's what was communicated through them to the various groups; that's how that was being conducted. That did not go from me directly to the Canadian Armed Forces personnel on the ground.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Did you follow up on how the information was conveyed?

What we understand is that other groups could have been informed. However, only 225 people made it to a meeting point.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Let me make it clear, first of all, that the question at hand is.... Originally, I thought this was about whether I inappropriately used assets to bring people, but in this case, I want to make it very clear, because I believe it was your motion, that these people, first of all, were actually part of the government policy in place.

I just want to make sure that we are clear on that.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

The first time the policy was released was on August 13. So it was done after operations started, and it was a relocation policy.

Are you telling me that resettling and evacuating refugees is the same thing and that IRCC dictates, on the ground, how to evacuate and prioritize who will be evacuated?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

You would have to talk to IRCC about that. It was their policy that was announced. My job was the evacuation, and then my job was to execute that government policy.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I repeat my question.

In your opinion, are resettlement and evacuation under the same policy?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Again, I think a lot of the questions you have are more for Immigration. I'm happy to discuss the motion you have here at hand. A lot of the questions you have are on the immigration side. You'll have to talk to them for the details on that.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

If I am not mistaken, you used the resettlement policy to justify the fact that several groups had to be evacuated based on a set order. What I understand is that, in your view, resettlement and evacuation are the same policy.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely not. I actually completely disagree with that assertion. There was a government policy that included Afghan Sikhs, and we executed that government policy. I transferred information that was given to me to the Canadian Armed Forces, like I did for so many other folks who were contacting me at that time. The Canadian Armed Forces were triaging.

I also want to explain that in an intense situation like this, when we're dealing with daily threats and making sure we have the safety of our folks, we don't have time to be micromanaging folks on the ground. We're discussing things. We feed that information in.

If I had information given to me that could potentially save somebody's life, regardless of which group it was, I wanted to make sure it got to the right people, so they could triage that information and do what they needed to do with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madame Normandin.

Next, we have Ms. Mathyssen, for six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

This motion has come forward because of the meeting over the summer. I really appreciate your coming forward today to set the record straight.

One thing is really clear in terms of much that has happened. Many people feel that Canada didn't do enough during the evacuation of Afghanistan. The special committee in Parliament studied it. We know that many difficult decisions were made by folks

Canadians knew that the threat of the Taliban taking over was a possibility. We knew that interpreters and others who supported Canada's mission were at risk. We knew about the marginalized communities you referenced and that were referenced by the policies set forward, including the fact that Sikhs were at risk when the Taliban took over.

Minister, I'm sure you're aware of the crucial work of the civilian language and cultural advisers to our mission in Afghanistan. These were civilian Canadians with Afghan heritage. They stepped up to serve, but they weren't warned they would be put in uniforms. They weren't warned they would go out on patrols outside the wire and face long deployments that were beyond the standard cycle for troops. They had drastically different work conditions from what they expected, and they came back with no supports. Their fixed-term contracts were ended. They were left on their own. They experienced so much, and it feels like they were left without any supports from the federal government.

Can you tell the committee when you were first made aware of the difficulties of the situation and the plight of those language and cultural advisers?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Before you answer that question, Minister, it does seem a bit beyond the remit for which you've been asked to this committee. You're welcome to answer the member's question, but it does strike me as a bit beyond.

I failed to stop the clock. I should have stopped the clock earlier, so I'll give you another 25 seconds.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I value the language and cultural advisers who worked for us. I served with many of them. This is obviously a question for the current Minister of National Defence.

I want to make sure I answer the questions appropriately for the motion at hand here. It's very important, because from inaccurate information, it can swirl out in different ways. I want to make sure Canadians are aware that the decisions I made were as a result of our government policy. Having the same religion wasn't a reason I made certain decisions.

I really want to stay focused on that. Obviously, you raised an important issue. I'm sure you will have the opportunity to talk to the current Minister of National Defence about that.