Evidence of meeting #125 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was philippines.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jess Agustin  Former Program Manager, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines
Cristina Palabay  Secretary General, Karapatan, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines
Branka Marijan  Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares
Philippe Lagassé  Associate Professor, Carleton University, As an Individual
Andrew Leslie  As an Individual

The Chair Liberal John McKay

It's 8:15, and I see that we have a quorum.

On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome our witnesses this morning. From the International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines, Jess Agustin is the former program manager. He will open, and I understand that Cristina Palabay, secretary general, Karapatan, will be joining us by video conference. They have the first five minutes. Then we have, also by video conference, from Project Ploughshares, Dr. Branka Marijan.

Welcome to everyone.

I call on Mr. Agustin for the opening five minutes between you and Ms. Palabay. Thank you.

Jess Agustin Former Program Manager, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of this committee, and thank you for giving us this opportunity to share some of our critical concerns, particularly on the human rights situation in the Philippines. After my introductory remarks, Cristina will follow me and share her concerns.

In recent years, Canada has shifted its approach toward strengthening economic security and trade ties with the Philippines through its Indo-Pacific strategy, which emphasizes commercial growth and regional security. However, this increased defence collaboration raises critical concerns. Given Canada's strong stance on human rights, it is concerning that human rights are not made a precondition for trade and security co-operation with the Philippines.

The ethical issues surrounding intensified defence co-operation with a country facing significant human rights abuses cannot be ignored. To maintain the integrity of its foreign policy, Canada must prioritize human rights alongside its economic security and trade interests. Canada should demand that the Philippine government address these ongoing violations. Anything less risks severely damaging Canada's global reputation. It is essential for Canada to carefully reassess its defence co-operation to ensure that its action aligns with the values it consistently advocates for on the world stage.

Cristina.

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have about three minutes left, please.

Cristina Palabay Secretary General, Karapatan, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines

Good day, esteemed members of the national defence committee.

Last week, we were with the relatives of victims of human rights violations. Without graves to go to, families of the disappeared offered flowers for their loved ones. Since Marcos Sr., nearly 2,000 people have been documented to have been abducted by state forces, and have remained missing, while 14 of them have been rendered desaparecidos under Marcos Jr.

We cried with families of drug war victims, as well as hundreds of those extrajudicially killed in the government's counter-insurgency campaigns. In the past two years, 105 farmers and indigenous people have been killed in this counter-insurgency war that the Philippine armed forces wage, through combat means, to end the communist movement. These gatherings reflect a disturbing continuum of the dire situation of human rights and international humanitarian law in the Philippines.

We receive reports on the military operations and bombings in rural and indigenous communities. Arms, weapons and helicopters—most bought and acquired outside the Philippines—are used in such operations in hamlet communities in order to force them to evacuate, or used to destroy farms, homes, schools and livelihood.

We fear that with the SoVFA being negotiated between our countries, Canadian troops and assets may be directly involved in these counter-insurgency campaigns that cause these violations.

As Canada develops its security agreements with the Philippine government, we believe that it is critical to put human rights and IHL at the front and centre of the discussions. There must be coherence of policy and practice, as expounded on by your “Voices at Risk” guidelines, as well as human rights initiatives in the Summit for Democracy.

We sincerely believe that the SoVFA will encourage, if not worsen, the climate of impunity in the Philippines and place Canadian troops in the context of the counter-insurgency war, making Canada complicit in the violations committed in it.

We advocate for peaceful political and diplomatic solutions in Asia, particularly in Southeast Asia. We believe that we need to demilitarize, and not escalate military tensions and increase a military presence in the West Philippine Sea. We need to try our very best, so as not to worsen the already difficult rights landscape in the country.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you.

Next, we have Dr. Marijan for five minutes, please.

Dr. Branka Marijan Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to speak on the defence policy update.

This update is a welcome step, particularly as it offers increased transparency into Canadian defence policy at a time of unparalleled global uncertainty. Canada, as a middle power with a strong multilateral tradition, is uniquely positioned to influence how we collectively address pressing security challenges.

Today, I'd like to highlight three key areas of concern and follow them with three recommendations.

The three key areas of concern are multiple and overlapping crises, climate change in the Arctic, and the transformative role of technology in warfare.

First, the global community, including Canada, is facing a multitude of overlapping crises. The global security environment is increasingly volatile and marked by great power competition and its ramifications. Conflicts such as those in Ukraine, the Middle East and Sudan demonstrate that threats are rarely contained within boundaries of states or one region. They transcend borders and are more complex than ever before. We face the risk of nuclear weapons use in multiple contexts, and we're witnessing the decay of international arms control frameworks. International law, including international humanitarian law, is routinely violated. At the same time, climate-related disasters are affecting every nation, and new technologies like artificial intelligence are amplifying existing threats and creating new ones.

We must recognize and acknowledge that none of these challenges can be resolved by military means alone. Rather, they require global dialogue and co-operation. Disappointingly, the concept of interdependence is not mentioned in this policy update, despite its relevance in addressing these crises effectively.

As calls for increased defence spending grow louder in Canada and around the world, there's a tendency to label Canada a military “laggard”, yet as Ernie Regehr, co-founder of Project Ploughshares, points out, Canada ranks among the top 10% of the world's military spenders. Focusing on military spending as a percentage of GDP obscures this reality.

Furthermore, the interconnected crises we face require more than military solutions. They demand investment in non-military security measures such as peacebuilding and diplomacy, which remain significantly underfunded. While defence spending garners much attention, our diplomatic resources and capabilities have not received adequate investment or priority.

Second, while the policy update identifies climate change and Arctic security as key concerns, it doesn't fully address the broader implications for global security and the well-being of Canadians. The Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence are being called upon more often to respond to climate-related disasters within Canada. With their capacity and resources, they are often the best equipped to handle such emergencies. However, CAF leadership has recently indicated that their ability to respond to natural disasters may be strained due to other commitments.

If the CAF lacks the capacity to respond to large-scale climate crises, which department will? We need a clear, detailed vision that outlines how the CAF and DND will adapt to climate-related challenges and support domestic disaster response. Moreover, an inter-agency protocol for disaster response is sorely needed, one that includes designated funding and resources for climate-related emergencies, ensuring that the CAF is not overstretched by this evolving role.

The Arctic’s changing security dynamics, particularly with heightened interest from major powers, elevate the urgency of a clear Canadian strategy to address both climate and security implications.

Third, the policy update acknowledges the transformative impact of new technologies on warfare. However, terms like “AI” and “machine learning” appear with little substantive detail on how Canada plans to address technological threats or even leverage these advancements.

Canada's stand on interoperability with allies, particularly around the deployment of potentially autonomous weapons systems, requires more precise articulation, especially on commitments to human oversight. Greater transparency and strategic planning in this area are critical to ensure that Canada's technological advancements meet ethical and legal standards. It is critical that Canada prioritize the development of a comprehensive framework for AI and defence, detailing its commitment to human control and legal accountability, and play a leading role in global discussions on autonomous weapons systems.

In response to these concerns, I propose the following three recommendations: one, strengthen interdepartmental collaboration and diplomatic capacity; two, use a broader lens in security when examining climate change; and three, provide more guidance on the deployment of new technologies in defence.

Mr. Chair, those of us in arms control and disarmament bear witness to the humanitarian cost of conflict and see first-hand how forward-thinking policies can save lives. Civil society's perspective is not one of naive optimism but of informed realism, built on the grim realities we encounter and on the conviction that prevention is both possible and necessary.

Thank you for your attention in considering these points.

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you to both witnesses, not only for your presentations but for the timeliness of your presentations.

With that, we'll go to the six-minute round.

Mr. Bezan, you have six minutes.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Chair.

I thank all of our witnesses for joining us this morning.

Dr. Marijan, you were talking about the advancements in AI. I know that over at the ethics and privacy committee we did a study a couple of years ago on the problems in facial recognition technology and artificial intelligence, and the biases that are often built into the algorithms that form the basis of things like machine learning, especially racial and gender biases.

What types of guardrails should the Department of National Defence be looking at to ensure that the technology they develop and/or procure is not building in these prejudices?

8:25 a.m.

Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Dr. Branka Marijan

Thank you so much for the question. I think it's an excellent one. It's certainly an issue we're aware of at the national level, and the Department of National Defence has been considering this issue.

I think there are an incredible number of guardrails to put into considering which systems are used and for what purposes. AI systems will hallucinate. They will make mistakes. They have built-in biases. The Department of National Defence needs to have a comprehensive strategy.

I was consulted on the AI strategy the Department of National Defence put out. However, it needs more substance to it. We need clarity on which systems, for which purposes and in which applications. Are we using them for back-end office things like recruiting individuals? Are we using them for targeting? There are a vast number of concerns, of course, as we go down the spectrum of use. There need to be clear policies and guidance for the Department of National Defence. These currently do not exist regarding which systems are permissible and which are not.

You pointed to the issue of bias. That is incredibly important for this committee to consider as you think about the application of new and emerging technologies. There will be biases built into the systems, and technological efforts to address them won't be sufficient. There needs to be clarity in who is making decisions and in who is held accountable for those decisions when these systems are applied.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

I want to continue down that path with you, Doctor.

As you're aware, AUKUS—Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States—has pillar II, which is dedicated to doing more in the areas of quantum computing, machine learning, AI and cybersecurity.

Do you believe Canada should strive to be part of pillar II, in order to work with our Five Eyes partners to develop that technology and ensure we're best prepared to deal with future challenges from our adversaries?

8:30 a.m.

Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Dr. Branka Marijan

AUKUS has a particular set of commitments, but I'm not sure Canada needs to join this agreement. Through partnership with the Five Eyes, and through other international commitments and summits, we're already engaging on these issues, particularly through the summits on responsible military AI that happened in the Netherlands and Korea. I'm not sure that joining this initiative is necessary for the further clarification that needs to happen on military applications of artificial intelligence and, indeed, other emerging technologies, such as quantum computing.

This is something that should be considered and debated at the political level. However, I think there are plenty of other opportunities to engage with allies and like-minded states on these issues.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

If you look at the cybersecurity threats coming from the Russian Federation, the People's Republic of China, Iran and North Korea, do you think our adversaries have any ethical concerns about the development of this new technology and how it could impact Canadians?

8:30 a.m.

Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Dr. Branka Marijan

If we position ourselves against those states, one of the challenges is that it becomes a race to the bottom, because there are a lot of things that are acceptable in the People's Republic of China, Russia and North Korea that I don't think we would ever want in a Canadian democracy. There are considerations for democracies about the ethical application of technologies.

The best approach we have is diplomacy. We have to work with those adversarial states. Unfortunately, our discussions at the international level have largely focused on like-minded states. We don't engage often enough with adversaries. There are some instances of bilateral discussions, particularly between the United States and China, on some of these emerging technologies. However, there is also an enormous race, whether it's for semiconductors or other aspects of emerging technology, which is hampering what's possible in the diplomatic domain.

In Canada, I am aware that there are, of course, concerns regarding these adversarial states. I don't want to undermine them or somehow downplay them. I think they are quite an issue for us to address. However, we don't want to go down the route of a race to the bottom and say, “If it's acceptable for China, it should be acceptable for us.” I think we have better values than that.

8:30 a.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

In the 20 seconds that are left, would you be able to tell the committee what you think the best expertise is that Canada can bring to the table in terms of advancing new technologies in the interest of national security?

8:30 a.m.

Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Dr. Branka Marijan

We have enormous technical talent. We have enormous legal and policy expertise. We just don't have the resources or capacity at Global Affairs or even the Department of National Defence. We need to dedicate more resources to these issues and files, since they will become more prominent on the international stage. Indeed, we're already seeing their impacts on battlefields.

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

Ms. Lapointe, you have six minutes.

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Agustin, Canada's new defence policy emphasizes the importance of protecting human rights and promoting global security. Given the human rights concerns you've raised and the comments that you made in your opening statement, where you said that Canada needs to ensure that this new policy aligns with the values it states it has on the world stage, how do you see Canada balancing its defence commitments with a strong commitment to human rights? What specific actions would you suggest to ensure Canada's defence policy supports human rights globally?

8:30 a.m.

Former Program Manager, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines

Jess Agustin

There are a number of actions and possibilities.

One is, knowing that the status of visiting forces agreement is being negotiated, to ensure that human rights are a precondition for any agreement to be finalized.

Second, it's important that we support grassroots organizations, like Karapatan, in documenting human rights abuses because the world is actually not aware that there is a war going on in the Philippines. Bombings are taking place. Extrajudicial killings are happening. Journalists are being suppressed. Most recently, a group that is promoting a peace negotiation or asking the government to resume the peace agreement that was negotiated years ago was arrested.

I think it's imperative for Canada that in any of these negotiations with the military or with the Philippine government human rights are part of the deal.

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Are there specific safeguards you would recommend to ensure that defence initiatives don't inadvertently contribute to the risks faced by activists, journalists and human rights defenders?

8:35 a.m.

Former Program Manager, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines

Jess Agustin

Are you asking whether there are cases where Canada was directly involved?

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Are there things that we should be aware of so we won't contribute to the plight of these activists and defenders?

8:35 a.m.

Former Program Manager, International Coalition for Human Rights in the Philippines

Jess Agustin

Yes, I think the visiting forces agreement that is being negotiated, which will put Canada's soldiers on the ground, is already a danger sign that Canada will be involved in the counter-insurgency campaign of the government.

The whole-nation approach of the government is the driving cause of human rights violation in the Philippines. They have the task force to end local communism. That's very dangerous, because a lot of us, including people here in Canada, are being red-tagged just because we're promoting peace and because we're promoting human rights. The moment you say that, the government and the military tell you that you are part of this insurgency.

I think it's important that Canada doesn't get embroiled in those kinds of dynamics that are happening in the Philippines. By directly supporting a military with a history of human rights violations and abuses for decades, I think Canada is becoming directly complicit in what is happening now in the Philippines.

People are saying that there is a big improvement between Duterte's government and the Marcos government. It is not true. In fact, the drug war continues. It's now the biggest topic in the senate of the Philippines, but the killing continues—particularly extrajudicial killing, arbitrary arrests and so on.

Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON

Thank you.

Dr. Marijan, given the increasing militarization of the Arctic by other powers, particularly Russia, how do you assess Canada's current capacity to defend its Arctic region? How can this policy help to address those emerging security challenges in the north?

The Chair Liberal John McKay

You have about a minute.

8:35 a.m.

Senior Researcher, Project Ploughshares

Dr. Branka Marijan

Thank you so much for that question.

I think a great deal of co-operation still happens in the Arctic. There are aspects of Arctic security that are not necessarily militarized yet, but I do think we see this trend from other great powers as well. There are rights of passage through that area that I think are of concern to Canada, and we certainly need to be prepared for that reality. Again, with climate change, I think there will be greater issues in terms of the capacity and ability to really patrol and control that region.

I do think there's still a lot that we need to consider in terms of non-security aspects of this issue. There will be a need for greater co-operation among Canada and these more adversarial states, particularly Russia. I think we are very much concerned about this. I think the defence policy update is gearing toward sort of a more military response. I don't see, however, the same level of thinking about non-military responses and the communities in that region, and indeed the indigenous communities in that region and their knowledge and their contributions. I think we risk overly militarizing this region at the cost of effective responses that will be necessary because of climate change.