National Defence Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Good morning, everyone. We are a few minutes late.

Thank you to the minister for rearranging his schedule to be here as soon as possible.

I see quorum, and I'm looking forward to what the minister has to say for the next five minutes.

Minister, the floor is yours.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the members of the committee for giving us an opportunity to come before you today to discuss the proposed funding for the Department of National Defence, the Canadian Armed Forces and the Communications Security Establishment through the supplementary estimates (B).

These estimates come at an extremely important time for the defence and security of Canada and Canadians. Through these estimates, we will be requesting $3.3 billion, which will help fund a number of commitments that we announced during our renewed defence policy, along with other critical operational requirements.

Likewise, there is $58.9 million being requested for Communications Security Establishment Canada, which will help to ensure that its members can continue to carry out their vital mission of safeguarding Canadians in the cyber domain. This investment is going to enhance CSE's ability to protect Canada's economic security, defend democratic processes and advance Canada's international affairs and defence and security interests.

I'd like to take a few moments, if I may, Mr. Chair, to highlight some of the key projects that we're proposing to fund through these estimates today.

First of all, it's important to note that over half of the funding requested for national defence and our military falls under capital spending. This reflects the need to invest in new equipment and programs in light of the challenging defence and security environment that we find ourselves in.

Of this funding, $659 million is being allocated to the future aircrew training program for incoming pilots, air combat system officers and airborne electronic sensor operations. This training will bolster our ability to train a sufficient number of qualified aircrews to meet our operational requirements and to ensure that the RCAF maintains a multi-purpose and combat-capable air force.

We are also requesting $561 million toward the Canadian multi-mission aircraft project, with which this committee will be well familiar, so that we can remain on track to replace our fleet of CP-140 Aurora aircraft with 16 new-generation P-8A Poseidon aircraft.

For the Royal Canadian Navy, we're requesting $310 million in capital funding as well as $5.4 million in operational funding to help deliver on two future joint support ships. Once these ships are complete and deployed in operations, they are going to provide deployed ships with fuel, spare parts, food, water and other much-needed supplies. In the meantime, we also have to maintain these capabilities through the interim auxiliary oiler replenishment vessel project, for which we're also proposing $15.3 million in funding through these estimates in a contract with Davie shipyard.

As we announced in budget 2024 and reaffirmed in “Our North, Strong and Free”, we're also allocating a total of $299 million toward sustaining our existing fleet of Halifax-class frigates while we build our future 15 River-class destroyers. Failing to maintain these vessels can significantly undermine our ability to meet our commitments in the Indo-Pacific and to NATO.

With some additional investments, we also remain committed to providing military assistance to Ukraine until they are victorious. In these estimates, we're allocating $763.5 million. This is going to be for the munitions, training and the tools that Ukraine needs to defend itself against Russia's illegal invasion.

We're also requesting $202 million toward the national procurement plan that will ensure the readiness of about 100 of our existing CAF fleets. I know this is a subject that has also been studied by...and you've heard testimony at this committee about the underinvestment and mismanagement of our existing fleets. We put forward $202 million in order to ensure the operational effectiveness of our existing fleet.

We're also allocating $209.2 million toward science and technology research associated with the NORAD modernization plan.

There are a number of other initiatives to provide modern equipment and improve support services for members of our military, as well as transfers to and from other departments and agencies.

Across the globe, as this committee is well aware, our adversaries are determined to undermine our values, our sovereignty and our democratic institutions to suit their own aims. This funding that is being requested through these estimates is critical to protecting Canadians and supporting our allies and partners against threats like these now and well into the future.

I believe we need to move quickly to ensure that our people in uniform have exactly what they need to keep us safe. I want to urge all members of this committee to unanimously support this desperately required funding in the upcoming estimates.

Thank you. I'm pleased to take whatever questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

Colleagues, we started a little late, but my intention is to have a full hour with the minister, which will be two full rounds. That will probably bleed into the second hour and that's where we'll lose a bit of time.

With that, we'll go to Mr. Bezan for six minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I welcome the minister and officials from DND and CAF here. Welcome.

Minister, as you know, in your defence policy update you guys did estimates on where you're going to end up by 2032 on the 2% NATO commitment. Then that changed when you and the Prime Minister were down in Washington at the NATO summit. The PBO said that the numbers that were in the DPU were in error and that it's going to take an extra $41 billion to get to the 2% commitment by 2032.

Why were the numbers fudged in the DPU and didn't even line up with the GDP projections that are used by the Department of Finance?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Unfortunately, Mr. Bezan, your question indicates that you're somewhat confused by the sequence of events, so may I clarify that for you.

On April 8, we released the defence policy update. The defence policy update articulated a plan to bring Canada's defence spending to 1.76% by 2030. It was followed up by the spring budget that also took place in the spring, obviously, of 2024, which added significant new additional spending, which was approximately $8.1 billion over the next five years and $73 billion over the next 20 years. That did not articulate a plan to bring us to 2%, but only to 1.76% in the next five years.

We then sharpened our pencils, and we also explained in the onset that we were going to do additional work because there was much more that needed to be done.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

You're not explaining how your numbers and projections are different from what the PBO said—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you for that. I was trying to just clarify.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

—and the GDP projections by the Department of Finance, by your colleague, Hon. Chrystia Freeland.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I was trying to clarify for you the sequence of events.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

He's not answering the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, both of you. We're getting into it a little earlier. Roughly, your question was a minute. I should give the minute back to the minister to respond, and then we'll go from there.

You have about 15 seconds left.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Just to clarify, first of all, I've always valued the work of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. He provides very valuable advice and assistance to Parliament, and we take his reports very seriously. However, I would just say, as a point of clarification, Canada has made a commitment to reach 2% of spending of our GDP, and it's a NATO commitment; it's a NATO standard. NATO uses a different calculation for each nation, all 32 members' GDP. They use the OECD calculation, and we have based our commitment on the NATO standard, not on the numbers that the Parliamentary Budget Officer uses.

I'm not arguing with the Parliamentary Budget Officer. As a matter of fact, I appreciate his ambition.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay. We're stretching it here.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I just say that the Parliamentary Budget Officer's numbers are based upon actual projections.

Let's drill down on this budget, because this budget and these estimates actually show defence spending getting cut. You announced, in one of your first announcements when you were named defence minister, that $2.7 billion would be cut from the budget. We know that has impacted training and the readiness of our forces. We had your former colleague, General Leslie, here, and he was talking about how our NATO brigade is no longer training as a unit and getting certified in combined arms training at Wainwright. He says they're going to have to learn on the job, using other people's equipment and the expertise in the country, and he says that is not safe.

Minister, why are we making our troops less safe, less capable and less ready by not fully making use of our facilities here in Canada, like CFB Wainwright?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

General Leslie is a former colleague and a good friend of mine. I've been to his home a number of times for dinner, but I respectfully disagree. I would just point out to General Leslie, who served exceptionally well and admirably in the Canadian Armed Forces for many years, that he's been out for a while. I think that might be a question.

The decision was an operational decision to do the training that you've referenced in theatre in Latvia, where we're working in a coalition environment with 11 other nations. The decision was made that, in order to really maximize the benefit of that training, we should do it in that environment and that's where it's taking place. It was an operational decision, which might suggest that in the second hour you could reference that question to the vice-chief.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I will, so let's move on then. One of the aspirations of Canada, of course, is to join AUKUS. We're receiving, also, the F-35s and the P-8s. That requires that we have a top secret cloud to be able to be interoperable with our allies.

Where are we at on getting that contract to ensure that we have a top secret cloud that's interoperable with Canada, the U.S., U.K. and other allies?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I don't want to get too far ahead of our discussions with AUKUS, but Canada is making some exceptional progress. We are at the table discussing—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Are we talking about—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—Canada's robust participation in the second pillar of AUKUS. There is ongoing work, and again, I would turn that question and perhaps suggest—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I'll get back in the second hour. If you don't know, we'll just keep on moving on.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

No, it's not that I don't know. It's just that there are elements of those contractual discussions that I don't think would be appropriate for me to discuss—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay, so—

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

—and perhaps the chief would have a much better understanding of that.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We'll deal with that in the second hour.

We also know that because of the budget cuts there was.... You've already said that this was in consulting, but my understanding is that there also have been cuts to satellite telecommunications services as well as the ISR that we have been relying on in the past, and that has also been taken away in excess of $200 million.

Is that a direct result of the $2.7 billion in cuts you're making to National Defence?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that.

We are reducing our spending—as every department in the government should—on executive travel and on professional services, but we made it very clear, and I actually directed it to the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence, that what we are not going to do is impact our operational readiness or the services and support we supply to members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

People are the foundation of the Canadian Armed Forces, and we're making a number of really significant investments in our people, including in housing, child care and health care. We're increasing hiring. We're accelerating our response to personal crises, and we're doing all of the things that our people have told us are necessary to make it easier for them to serve. We're going to continue to attract, retain and train the next generation of our forces, and I have some good news to share with this committee—