National Defence Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm not really fond of run-on sentences, so if we could, we'll move on to the next six minutes with Madame Lapointe.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Welcome, Minister Blair.

You're here today to speak about supplementary estimates (B) while the House of Commons is in a near deadlock. Can you set the scene for us? What is the risk if this money doesn't go through?

How do these estimates matter to the Canadian Armed Forces and to our operational readiness?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much. That is the essential question. It's precisely why I asked for the opportunity to come before this committee.

My understanding, in my conversations with the deputy minister—who's here with me today—with the CDS and the vice and all of their teams, and with the Communications Security Establishment, is that the funding that is requested in these estimates, that will be authorized through these estimates, is essentially required for us to continue to move forward.

There is a strong sense of urgency among all of our departments and all of our officials. Canada needs to do more, and Canada needs to do it quicker. We need to accelerate. Our capability requirements.... We need to move quicker. The delay in getting access to this funding could have a significant operational impact on the progress that our team is making. That's why I ask for your support.

I'm also quite concerned because the request for funding for Ukraine—$763 million—is vote 10b under the supplementary estimates (B). If that money is not approved in a timely way, that money will lapse by the end of the fiscal year. Ukraine needs it desperately.

I wanted to come before this committee and make sure that you are all aware that there is an urgency in the approval of these estimates.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

There is over $202 million in funding to maintain the operational readiness of approximately 100 existing Canadian Armed Forces fleets, including aircraft, ships, tanks and other military equipment.

What is the importance of this funding for the safety and the security of military personnel and for Canadians at large?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I'm aware that this committee has heard testimony from a number of our senior officials, including the former CDS, about the operational readiness of many of our fleets. He has provided you with the information and insight that many of our vehicles—for example, our tanks, our artillery—are in an unsatisfactory state of repair. We recognize that. We heard that request very clearly.

That's why in ONSAF and in the 2024 budget we asked for the money that is required to maintain those fleets. We have to make sure that our people can do their job, but that they can also do it safely. That's why this money is important. We recognize and acknowledge that the Canadian Armed Forces told us they needed help in maintaining their existing equipment, and we've come forward with money to do that.

There's also money, as I mentioned, for maintaining the Halifax fleet. Until the new destroyers are built, we're going to have to remain operational, and we can't do that unless we maintain those frigates. Money to maintain our existing fleets is every bit as important as the money that we're asking for in new capital acquisitions.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Can you elaborate on the $210 million that is allocated for science and technology research to modernize the North American Aerospace Defense Command and what this funding means for the future capability to defend Canada and North America?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As this committee is well aware, we've allocated $38.6 billion for NORAD modernization. It is going to require a significant update.

We've relied for generations on the DEW line, which has provided great service. New over-the-horizon and polar over-the-horizon radar systems, new technologies and, frankly, moving towards more robust integrated air and missile defence for the continent are part of the NORAD modernization. It's going to require that we invest in Canadian innovation and researchers so that we can do our part and participate in that alliance.

There are other announcements that I will be making shortly. I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but we're also working very closely in alliance with some of our international partners, including Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom and others. Canada is really stepping up.

It's one of the reasons I might suggest we are being very actively attracted to the AUKUS pillar two table, because Canada's scientific innovative community is strong. We have much to offer our allies, but it does require that our government invest in those innovators and invest in that research in order to make us truly effective.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

The estimates contain $59 million in funding for Canada's Communications Security Establishment. We've seen certainly some testimony here that, with cyber-attacks on the rise, including more frequent cyber-threats to economic security, we will need to rely on those capabilities to continue to keep Canadians safe.

How critical is this funding to ensuring that we can continue to build up Canada as an effective cyber-power?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, let me take the opportunity to express my great pride in the exceptional work of CSE. I hear from our allies all the time about the very high respect that our people are earning in the international community. They're also doing critically important work in protecting not just our country but our provinces' and municipalities' critical infrastructure across this country from cyber-attacks.

Canada is in a state of constant attack from the hostile activities of state actors and criminal organizations that are attempting to undermine our important public institutions, our critical infrastructure and our data systems through cyber-attacks. CSE is our first line of defence. It's absolutely essential.

I'm sure the chief will be able to provide you with more detail on what some of those investments will involve and why they're necessary. They have convinced me, and I hope to be able to convince you, that there's an urgency to continue to make these investments, because the work that they do is so critically important to our national security and defence.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

It is now over to Ms. Normandin for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's always nice to have you, Minister.

In September last year, your budget was cut, namely on the maintenance and operations side. In these supplementary estimates, I don't see any additional money for operations. Things like field training come to mind.

I would just like to know whether you asked for additional money for operations or training, for instance. If so, was your request denied? Did you just not ask for additional money for training and such?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll take the opportunity to share with you that, as I've indicated already, we were asked by the Treasury Board to look at funding refocusing. Every department was asked to look at their expenditures. It's important that we be efficient in the way we spend public taxpayer dollars and that we get the most value from them.

I directed that we would not look at the maintenance of our equipment, the supports we provide for our people or anything that would impact operations or the supports of members of the Canadian Armed Forces. Instead, we are looking at some professional services. Some are absolutely essential, and I know you're well aware of many of them, but some of them were perhaps not the best use of public resources. We also looked at executive travel and other measures that, I think, were appropriate to make sure that we were managing our funding appropriately.

There have been some operational impacts and, therefore, I've now been advised that, in the second round of budget refocusing the Treasury Board has undertaken, there has been a decision made to exempt the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces from any future refocusing of spending. I think it's an acknowledgement of the important and essential work we are doing. It's reflected in our budget and in the estimates we're bringing forward to you. It's good news for the Canadian Armed Forces and the Department of National Defence.

I hope it's good news for this committee that there's an acknowledgement that we need to do much more, and we need to do it quicker.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I understand from your answer that cuts were made to professional services and in other areas. However, I wanted to know whether you got any requests to restore the training or operations budget, say. If I understood correctly, no cuts will be made going forward. That's what you said.

Right now, though, as far as these votes are concerned, did you get any requests for more money?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

As I've indicated, there is indication here. There is a direct request for the sustainment of our fleets. However, it's not only meant for sustaining equipment, but also meant for making sure that we have the people trained with skills in order to maintain that equipment. Those are investments that could involve training, which is also essential as part of maintaining our fleets.

In addition to that, I believe we'll be able to share with you what the CDS and her team have put forward. It's a new reconstitution plan, which looks at a number of different training requirements, including expanding our training for basic training so that we can improve our intake of personnel into the Canadian Armed Forces. Part of that can be addressed within existing budgets. Part of it is going to require additional monies, and we'll be seeking that in the upcoming budget.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Something that comes up over and over again is the production of 155‑millimetre shells.

I'd like you to talk about that. I see that the department is requesting funding in the supplementary estimates for the acquisition of air-to-air missiles.

What about improving domestic capacity to manufacture 155‑millimetre shells, among other things?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Actually, a great deal was happening in that discussion. There are negotiations now taking place between the Department of National Defence and the Canadian industries involved in the production of munitions. We met with them, and we heard very clearly that they needed the certainty of long-term contracts. We've provided that in ONSAF. In the 2021 budget, I believe $1.8 billion is directed towards the procurement of those necessary munitions.

We're also in discussion because there was also money allocated to invest in new production lines, the security of new supply chains. That is part of an ongoing contract negotiation that's taking place with those companies.

I want to assure you that we are seized with a great sense of urgency. I've heard very clearly from the Canadian Armed Forces that it wants to urgently move towards having an adequate supply of battle-decisive munitions, and we will do what is necessary to acquire those munitions, if possible within Canada. If it's not possible to do it in a timely way, then we have other options that we'll consider as well.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

In the supplementary estimates, more funding is being requested to assist Ukraine, some $400 million, if I'm not mistaken.

In October, as I recall, the government announced $64 million to purchase small arms.

What will the rest of the money be used for? Is it a loan? Is it to procure equipment? Is it a direct contribution?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

There are a number of significant investments. We are in constant communication with Ukraine.

I'll take this opportunity to share with you, if I may, about the NASAMS. I know that this committee has been quite focused on it, and we've worked really hard with our American allies, with Raytheon, the manufacturing company, to deliver this as quickly as possible. I'm now advised that this equipment is in the hands of Ukrainians. I can't give you more information on that because of operational security, but we have been able to deliver, at long last. I think it's going to make a difference because it will enable them to protect communities.

There are also a number of additional things we are attempting to do with Ukrainians. You're right. We've already provided a number of supports within the broad envelope, but it's not just the one you referenced. It's a total of $763 million in these estimates. There is money that we are investing, for example, in Ukrainian industry. They're working in partnership with our armed forces and with Canadian industry to produce munitions in Ukraine. Supporting that industry helps Ukraine develop what it needs and gets it delivered much quicker.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Unfortunately, we're going to have to leave it there. I'm hoping you're going to work those kinds of responses into other questions.

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.

The supplementary estimates outline a number of different transfers to different institutions. Yesterday, though, we learned in the external monitor's fourth report that the Canadian Human Rights Commission representatives are restricted in their ability to conduct outreach to CAF members on their rights due to “a lack of resources.”

Why is the Department of National Defence not stepping in to provide those additional funds to cover the necessary outreach that needs to occur?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces do not fund the Canadian Human Rights Commission. However, I think it's important that we do everything that is possible. We did make a policy decision, and we enacted new rules that allow every member of the Canadian Armed Forces to go directly to the Canadian Human Rights Commission. That has put an additional burden on the Human Rights Commission—that our people can go directly. We've already seen some very positive things, which the external monitor has also pointed out.

If I may, as well, I'll highlight another area that is a shared concern of ours, which the external monitor has highlighted. One of the challenges for the Human Rights Commission, for the external monitor and for the Canadian Armed Forces is inadequate access to the data that is necessary to facilitate proper resolution of these matters and to facilitate speedier action. There is money here that we are investing in digitizing our HR processes to improve the data availability that would be available to CAF and to the Human Rights Commission, and that would support our members.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

The external monitor talked about the plans to expand on the independent legal assistance program by expanding in-house legal expertise. I think that's what you were just speaking about.

What consideration has been given to survivors who would face a barrier to accessing these resources due to institutional betrayal, which makes them hesitant to access legal advice from an institution that has such a problematic history?

That would also link it back to the Canadian Human Rights Commission, considering that it would be a trusted ally and source, as opposed to internal resources.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Lindsay, it's an important question. We want to make sure that those survivors have access to adequate legal resources. I'm advised that the Department of National Defence provides funding to enable them to access those resources if and when they require them.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Except we were told those are restricted.... The external monitor explained that they are being restricted and they are not as accessible in terms of the resources that are required.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Again, there is access to funding. The department provides funding in order to enable them to access those resources.

Let me also acknowledge that I think the external monitor is doing an exceptional job for us. We work daily with her. We receive the interim reports from her episodically, but there's a daily conversation about things we can work on and improve together. As she has already highlighted, by the end of this year, two-thirds of those recommendations will have been implemented.

We are working to fully implement all of the recommendations by the end of the year. We have a comprehensive implementation plan. We'll continue to find ways to make sure that survivors get all of the supports they require.