National Defence Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I am calling the meeting to order.

On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome our guests.

I appreciate your co-operation in trying to merge two hours into one panel, which I think is actually a more useful way to go about things. I'm still going to go in the order of the expected appearances, and I'm going to ask each of you for a five-minute opening statement.

Our first witness is Greg Carreau, director general, safe environments directorate. Our second witness will be Seth Cain, director, contaminated sites division, at Environment and Climate Change Canada. Our third witness will be, from the Treasury Board Secretariat, Sarah Evans, executive director, investment management directorate.

This is all pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), when we adopted a motion that the committee commence its study on the Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces contaminated sites.

This is our first meeting. I look forward to what you have to say.

I'll start with Mr. Carreau for five minutes, please.

[Greg Carreau, Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, honourable members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to discuss the expertise that Health Canada provides to assist the Department of National Defence in addressing contaminated sites. It is my pleasure to join you today on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

I’m speaking on behalf of Health Canada in my role as director general of the safe environments directorate in the healthy environments and consumer safety branch.

The 20th century saw a large increase of chemical substances introduced into the chemicals market that yielded tremendous benefits, including firefighting foams. However, many chemicals also introduced risks to human health and the environment. Health Canada works to protect people in Canada from chemical risks in a number of ways.

Of most immediate relevance to this committee is the federal contaminated sites action plan, through which Health Canada assists a number of federal organizations responsible for contaminated sites, including the Department of National Defence. When requested, Health Canada scientists provide technical advice on site-specific health risk assessments and have developed guidance for assessing and addressing health risks of chemicals associated with historical military activities such as per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFAS, trichloroethylene, dioxins and energetic compounds.

Health Canada has developed 19 technical guidance documents on methods to support the assessment of risks to health from chemicals in soil, air, water, country foods and others at contaminated sites. Furthermore, Health Canada supplements guidance with training for federal organizations responsible for contaminated sites, including the Department of National Defence.

Another way in which Health Canada works to protect people in Canada from chemical risks is through administering parts of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act, or CEPA, in collaboration with Environment and Climate Change Canada.

Recent amendments to CEPA have strengthened Canada’s management of chemicals to protect human health and the environment. For the first time in federal legislation, it is recognized that every individual in Canada has a right to a healthy environment. Changes to CEPA also introduced a transparent priority-setting plan for addressing chemicals and a watch-list of substances of potential concern, and reinforced the need to protect our most susceptible populations.

Within the chemicals management plan, Health Canada scientists identify how people in Canada are exposed to chemicals, the risks they pose and the actions that can be taken to address risks to human health. A major priority for the Government of Canada is the assessment and management of risks related to PFAS, commonly referred to as “forever chemicals”. For over 15 years, Health Canada has been taking action on this group of substances, which has many important uses, including in fire-fighting foams.

A range of negative health effects have been reported for a small number of well-studied PFAS, including but not limited to the liver, kidney, thyroid and nervous system. There is also an increasing amount of new science that shows other PFAS can lead to similar negative health effects. With an objective of replacing PFAS with safer alternatives, Canada is among the leaders in the global community assessing and managing over 4,700 PFAS as a single class of substances.

In summary, Health Canada works to support the protection of people in Canada from risks associated with chemicals. An important aspect of this work is assisting the Department of National Defence in addressing contaminated sites associated with historical military activities.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Carreau.

Mr. Cain, you have five minutes.

[Seth Cain, Director, Contaminated Sites Division, Department of the Environment]

Good afternoon. My name is Seth Cain, and I am the director of the contaminated sites division within the environmental protection operations directorate of Environment and Climate Change Canada. I oversee the secretariat of the federal contaminated sites action plan, which we refer to as FCSAP. This program helps the federal government address its contaminated sites. I am here today to respond to your questions about the FCSAP approach.

FCSAP was established in 2005 as a 15-year program. In 2019, it was renewed for another 15 years, with budget 2019 providing funding for the first five years of this renewed period. It has been funded again through budget 2024. The objective of FCSAP is to reduce the environmental and human health risks from federal contaminated sites, as well as associated liabilities for the Government of Canada.

FCSAP provides funding, guidance and expert support for the cleanup of federal contaminated sites across the country. The program funds federal organizations like the Department of National Defence to undertake assessment, remediation and risk management activities at their federal contaminated sites. The federal organization that manages a contaminated site is referred to as a “custodian”.

Environment and Climate Change Canada has three roles in this program: First, through the secretariat, we provide administrative policy and reporting leadership. Second, as an expert support department, like Health Canada, we provide guidance, training and scientific advice regarding ecological risks, and third, as a custodian, Environment Canada is responsible for the management of its own contaminated sites.

I thank you and look forward to responding to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Finally, Ms. Evans, you have five minutes.

[Sarah Evans, Executive Director, Investment Management Directorate, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting us to support its study of Department of National Defence and Canadian Armed Forces contaminated sites. My name is Sarah Evans, and I am the executive director of investment management within the office of the comptroller general at the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat.

I would like to take a moment to outline the role the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat plays in supporting the management of federal contaminated sites.

First, the Treasury Board sets the administrative policy framework for the management of federal real property through its directive on the management of real property. The directive outlines the responsibilities of departments that administer real property, which we call “custodian organizations”, so that real property is planned, acquired, used and disposed of in a manner that supports the delivery of programs and services to Canadians while ensuring best value for the Crown.

As part of the directive, the responsibilities of each custodian organization that manages contaminated sites are set out. This includes following standards and guidelines endorsed by the Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment.

Second, in support of transparency, custodian organizations that administer contaminated sites must also report annually on them in the federal contaminated sites inventory.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Ms. Evans.

Did we just lose translation?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Yes.

[A voice]

It's just a little slow.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Can you back up a couple of sentences and continue, please?

[Sarah Evans]

Second, in support of transparency, custodian organizations that administer contaminated sites must also report annually on them in the federal contaminated sites inventory. Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat is responsible for the administration of this publicly available information system. The reporting requirements for the inventory are set out in the directives and are established for the federal contaminated sites action plan governance. Custodian organizations submit information on their contaminated sites and certify to the completeness and accuracy of that data.

The federal contaminated sites inventory includes data on all known and suspected contaminated sites under the custodianship of federal departments, agencies and consolidated Crown corporations. It displays a standard set of baseline and annually updated information for federal contaminated sites and provides points of contact so that Canadians can request additional information regarding specific contaminated sites.

As science continues to evolve related to contaminants of emerging concern, the federal contaminated sites action plan secretariat, led by my colleagues at Environment and Climate Change Canada, works with relevant regulators and offers expert support with Health Canada, for example, to establish reporting requirements. As of fiscal year 2024–2025, the federal contaminated sites inventory will include information on per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, or PFAS, contamination for active contaminated sites.

Finally, the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat plays a supporting role in the administration of the federal contaminated sites action plan. As my colleague outlined in his opening remarks, the federal contaminated sites action plan is the main government program to address federal contaminated sites. We support Environment and Climate Change Canada in its secretariat role to manage horizontal elements of the program. This is primarily through the management of the federal contaminated sites inventory as well as supporting the governance committees for the initiative.

With that Mr. Chair, I am pleased to answer any questions from committee members about Treasury Board and the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat's roles with respect to the management of contaminated sites.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mr. Tolmie, welcome to the committee. You have six minutes.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair, for having me here.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today. I have a couple of questions. Obviously, the relevance for me is very important. Having two bases in my riding, some of the things that you have shared are very important.

Mr. Cain, I'm going to ask you first because you mentioned a FCSAP.

Just for the record, is there a reporting requirement or a hierarchy and a chain of command for people or departments to record contaminated sites?

[Seth Cain]

Thank you for the question.

There are a set of guidelines, first, about reporting publicly through the federal contaminated sites inventory, which Ms. Evans mentioned in her opening remarks and can elaborate on.

Through that inventory, we ensure and custodians are responsible for providing basic information about contaminated sites. That inventory also provides points of contact for members of the public to contact a specific site owner, such as DND or any other federal department or agency, to request additional information on a given site.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

If you are not aware of having a contaminated site on your base or in your area, how would you know?

How would you find out that there is a contaminated site? Could this just be missed because we don't have people who are properly trained in identifying contaminated sites?

[Seth Cain]

Thank you for the question, again.

The federal contaminated sites inventory is public, so it's available through that channel. I think it's also important to note that a given custodian of a contaminated site has the responsibility to be aware of and communicate appropriately if there are risks to human health, be that to the broader public or to employees.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'll ask the same question but in a slightly different way.

If I were a base commander, a wing commander or a unit commander, and I didn't know that there was contamination in the area I was working in, that would go unnoticed unless someone had that expertise and recognized they're dealing with or working with contamination.

If you don't know, how would you be able to report that? If you don't know what you're working with, how do you find out? I mean, the reporting system is based on knowing and identifying what contaminated sites are.

That question can go to anybody.

[Seth Cain]

I'll offer one additional piece of insight on that. The federal contaminated sites action plan, which has been in place since 2005, has led to, especially in its early years, a comprehensive effort on the part of federal departments, agencies and real property landowners to identify potentially contaminated sites. We refer to them as “suspected.”

The process is to work through those potential sites to understand whether there is, in fact, contamination and whether it exceeds guidelines, and then work through planning and cleaning up those sites.

There's been a pretty comprehensive effort going back many years to identify potential sites. It's not to say there aren't any uncertainties left, but it has been pretty comprehensive. As an example, the program, when it started, was estimating in the range of 6,000 contaminated sites. It's now over 24,000, with the large majority of those—over 18,000—now closed. In many cases, they were closed once it was determined that the site was not, in fact, contaminated, so it was purely suspected.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I want to have on the record.... My concern is that we're working with numerous departments, and they're siloed. Where's the chain of command, where's the hierarchy and what is the obligation if you notice a contaminated site?

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

There's never enough time.

I just want to say thank you. I am concerned that members of the military might not understand what they are dealing with, and I want to make sure there is a chain of command and there is a hierarchy for answering to someone.

Thank you very much for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

For the chair's edification, what's your riding, and what are the bases that are in the riding?

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

It's Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan. It is 15 Wing, where the Snowbirds are based—we lend them out to the rest of Canada—and Dundurn, obviously. It's a site where we have a lot of old weapons that we get rid of.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here with us to answer some questions on this important topic today.

My first question is for Environment and Climate Change.

I'm wondering if you can let us know what the process is when the department receives feedback that there is a contaminated site. What happens at that point?