National Defence Committee on Nov. 26th, 2024

[Greg Carreau]

That's correct.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You had talked about those lands that weren't federal, but there certainly is an impact. Water runs beneath. There are impacts that expand past those boundaries. Water or soil contamination doesn't just exist until the boundary.

Who's responsible for the cost of the cleanup on, say, those provincial lands if it's seeping out elsewhere?

[Seth Cain]

The federal contaminated sites action plan is normally able to fund the cleanup when the contamination has started on federal lands or as a result of federal activities and is considered a federal contaminated site.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Would those other jurisdictions have to go after that money, or would it be more proactively provided?

[Seth Cain]

Once the contamination has been identified, it's proactive. It is up to the custodian of that site—DND or whoever—to understand, communicate with an adjacent landowner and then work to sample and determine a path forward, working with a provincial regulator, as Greg mentioned, or otherwise. Then FCSAP is able to fund that work to DND or another land custodian.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Carreau, can you clarify what role Health Canada has in the testing and assessment of the human health risks on DND properties? Is your team at any point involved in the analyzing of test results or providing guidance on interpreting those health impacts?

[Greg Carreau]

Thanks for the question.

We do have to provide guidance to custodians, including DND, on how to sample, where to sample and what analytical methods should be used to ensure rigorous testing is done to establish levels of concern in those areas. We also provide guidance on interpreting the results that come back, comparing them to levels of concern that we've identified.

In the case of drinking water, we'd advise on what treatment could be implemented, both domestically and community-wide, to address those concerns very much hand in hand with custodians, making sure the testing is done in a scientific and rigorous way, and then providing guidance and support on interpreting those results.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To Mr. Tolmie's point, you're providing guidance. You are not the ultimate authority.

[Greg Carreau]

That's correct.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

In conducting the work on identifying and assessing those contamination sites on federal lands, what expertise is required? What types and numbers of experts would you expect to be involved in that ground-level investigation?

[Seth Cain]

I'll start, if I may. Thank you for the question.

It very much will depend on the nature of the site. Sites can range from.... They can be quite simple, like a petroleum hydrocarbon spill that has a limited extent. That's relatively straightforward for contaminated sites experts who are available in the private sector or even within a larger department where they have a fair number of staff with science expert backgrounds.

In other cases, it can be a highly complex mixture of chemicals that risks spread and really needs the benefit of engaging with experts at Environment Canada or Health Canada to be able to determine the risks and an appropriate path forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We will have to leave it there.

Mrs. Gallant, you have five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

There had been previous reports of military disposal on AECL land adjacent to Base Petawawa. Previously, the standing committee talked about this, but it didn't get any answers. There were reports of biological warfare containers of nerve gas, mustard gas, anthrax and other unknown agents that were buried in the waste disposal site for the low-level waste that was buried on AECL property.

Is there an inventory of what the military buried there?

The reason I ask is that they are about to exhume that soil, clean it and put in a near-surface waste disposal facility to contain it. It would be helpful for the people who are on the ground or operating a backhoe to know, if they come across a barrel with their scoop, not to puncture it as it might have nerve gas or anthrax in it. Is there an inventory?

[Sarah Evans]

Thank you very much for the question.

We do have the federal contaminated sites inventory, which has everything that custodians across the country have identified. In terms of the specifics for that specific site, my best advice would be, when DND officials come, to ask them specifically about that site and what detailed information they have available.

As my colleague has indicated, it's certainly within the accountability of the Department of National Defence. They would be tracking all of that sort of information.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We have asked that question and they didn't know or just wouldn't tell us. I hope they tell you.

Last week, Minister Blair came to this committee and claimed that the Treasury Board made a decision to exempt the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces from the second round of spending cuts.

Is this accurate?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is that relevant?

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

It is because we're talking about money, and this project is going to cost money.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Insofar as you can answer the question, go ahead.

[Sarah Evans]

I apologize to the honourable member, Mr. Chair. I'm not involved in that specific exercise, so I'm not familiar with the details of it.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Would you ask the people at Treasury Board Secretariat who would know the answer to that and provide us with the documentation, so we would be able to verify that what the minister told us is true?

Treasury Board Secretariat—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Hang on here.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Can we request that? Do you need a motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You can request it, but you need to request it of people who can actually deliver.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I know she can't deliver it, but would she take that request to the people at Treasury Board Secretariat so that we can get the verification?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Presumably, she could transport the request. Whether she gets the answer is another issue.