Evidence of meeting #127 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was site.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Maybe somebody from Treasury Board Secretariat is watching and they'll get the question.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Treasury Board Secretariat is also responsible, overall, for government cybersecurity.
What is the mechanism by which the centre for cybersecurity contacts the House of Commons when there is a widespread cyber-attack going on?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Again, I'm not quite sure I see the connection here.
If somebody has an answer to Mrs. Gallant's inquiry, we're all ears.
Executive Director, Investment Management Directorate, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat
I apologize again, Mr. Chair. I'm not familiar with the cybersecurity. That would fall under the chief information officer.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Do we know that the money is in place to carry out these very important environmental remediations on military property?
What we received in the supplementary estimates was an indication that there was going to be a $2.7-billion cut to military spending. What you're doing is very important, and I want to ensure that the money is going to be there to carry out your full mission.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Again, I'm not quite sure how this panel of witnesses would respond to a question such as that, but you are more than welcome to try to respond to Mrs. Gallant's question.
Executive Director, Investment Management Directorate, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat
There was an announcement in the most recent budget about the renewal of the federal contaminated sites action plan program, and we're working closely with our colleagues in Environment and Climate Change Canada, as well as all custodians, to be able to move forward with implementing what was announced in the most recent budget.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Fraser Tolmie is going to continue.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
I wish I could have merged these with the other 30 seconds I had before.
Just following up, the comment was made that the military, DND, is not obligated, or does not fall under the Treasury Board or any other department, to disclose or inform you of contaminated sites. Is that correct? That's my understanding.
Executive Director, Investment Management Directorate, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat
We have the federal contaminated sites inventory. The federal contaminated sites inventory was launched in 2002. All federal custodians, including the Department of National Defence, are required to report annually in regard to all of their suspected or confirmed contaminated sites within the federal contaminated sites inventory.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
My colleague Mrs. Gallant suggested that in contaminated sites there would be a concern of barrels of anthrax. Did Canada ever use biological weapons or manufacture them or store them, to your knowledge?
Director, Contaminated Sites Division, Department of the Environment
None of us would have that type of knowledge or expertise.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Would that be something that would be considered confidential?
Director, Contaminated Sites Division, Department of the Environment
It's a question that I would defer to National Defence, I think, to respond to you.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
I guess the question for Mr. Carreau would be this. Even if we had such things in the 1950s, is that, 70 years later, still going to be biologically active? Is there any legitimate concern about biological contaminations like that?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I'm not quite sure that you feel comfortable answering that question, but you're more than welcome to do so.
Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health
I wouldn't be able to answer that question.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Let me switch over to PFAS, which I guess is what we're here to talk about. In which military sites, former or existing, have we found high levels of PFAS? Where is this? Is this in the water, the groundwater, the surface water...?
Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health
Thanks for the question.
As my colleague Ms. Evans noted, the federal contaminated sites inventory lists a number of contaminated sites across the country, including those that may contain PFAS. There are upwards of approximately 100 contaminated sites across the country that contain some levels of PFAS contamination. The contamination would largely be in soil and groundwater.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Are the sites primarily sites that used to be or still are air bases? My understanding is that the concern was that it was coming primarily from the foam that firefighters used to fight fires. Is it just at those sites, or is it at other sites too?
Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health
I can't speak to that. Custodians would be the best place to identify where all their sites are and what activities led to that contamination.
You are quite right, honourable member, that the contamination was resulting mostly from aqueous film-forming foams that would have been applied either to extinguish fires or to train firefighters on how to use those foams. On the repeat applications, those would be at military applications or airports or other installations that would have had those activities.
November 26th, 2024 / 4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Marcus Powlowski Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
How do we know that the source of contamination was the military?
I looked up an article published in the New York Times, which cited a Nature Geoscience magazine. I guess it combined a whole bunch of studies of 45,000 water samples from around the world. They found that 31% of groundwater not near sources of contamination had harmful levels of PFAS in it—the levels were based on the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency levels—as did 16% of surface water. It seems like it's fairly ubiquitous even around places where you don't have obvious sources of contamination.
If you find it in a place, how do you know it was the military that caused it, or do we not know that or assume that?
Director General, Safe Environments Directorate, Department of Health
Thanks for the question.
You're quite right, honourable member, that PFAS are being found and detected around the globe, including across Canada and in its remote areas and northern communities.
I'll defer to the Department of National Defence regarding whether they've attributed their plume and their activities as a source of contamination in certain areas, but I have full confidence that it's done in a very rigorous and scientific way.