National Defence Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2024

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much. Your answer leads me to another question.

You mentioned that external sources could help you identify sources of contamination. In the case of Bagotville and Saguenay, a researcher at the Université de Montréal reported to the media based his own research. Was the Department of National Defence already aware of the possibility of contamination at the Bagotville site before this research became public?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

Thank you for the question.

I don't know exactly when those researchers did that work, but—

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

That was in November 2022.

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

So, yes, I think we knew before that.

Bagotville, of course, is the site of airfields, but it's also a firefighter training area. I'm talking about PFAS here, in particular. PFAS is a contaminant found in firefighting foam. As a result of that, we identified PFAS contaminants across the country, including in Bagotville. We have been, since 2010, regularly testing for PFAS across all of our sites. I don't know exactly when we found it.

I might invite Mr. Sattar, if he knows the exact date, but we would have identified it before 2022.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay, thank you.

In light of that answer, without needing the exact date, I'd like to know what the triggers you to notify the public around contaminated sites and to have tests done off base. How does that process get triggered? It seems like it was a surprise to Saguenay to learn that there might be contaminants on its territory.

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

Again, we do regular testing to determine whether this has been the case. If we know something has migrated, we will immediately alert local stakeholders.

We'll also do the same thing if we think there is the potential. Again, as we assess a site, we're looking at three things: the contaminant, the pathways and the receptors. If the pathways and receptors suggest there is a risk of off-site migration, even if it hasn't happened yet, we will engage local stakeholders.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Am I to understand that, in the case of Saguenay, as it had been known for a relatively long time, the municipality was aware of the possibility of contamination, or that other authorities outside the Bagotville base were?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

I'm not exactly sure about the history of the file, and when exactly Saguenay became aware and how so.

I know we have been working very closely and positively with the City of Saguenay to engage with them on addressing the PFAS that has now leached into their water supply. We are working with them through one of the shared responsibility framework agreements I mentioned earlier, with a $15.5 million investment in a temporary water treatment solution. We are working with them, as well, on a long-term, permanent solution for that water supply.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have six minutes, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you to everyone for appearing today.

I want to take us back to where Mr. Tolmie ended off.

Last week, Health Canada, Environment Canada and Treasury Board came before us. They were very clear about the custodianship we've talked about. I understand you've now said that, on a base or a wing, it's those commanders who are ultimately responsible.

However, what level of training does the Canadian Armed Forces or DND provide those custodians with, in terms of appropriate public health expertise, in order for them to be those full custodians?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

I'll leave questions about training on the medical side to my colleague here.

First, in terms of the environmental side and the contaminated sites themselves, we go out to the private sector when we assess contamination on sites, because that capacity is resident in the private sector more so than in the government.

However, on—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Sorry, but that wasn't the question. I wanted to know specifically about those people who are charged with this. At the end of the day, how are they supposed to understand exactly what information they're receiving to make the decisions they need to make?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

On the bases and wings, the individuals who are there as environmental officers—again, I can't speak for the medical folks—are trained in environmental sciences. They have that background and expertise to be able to speak to these issues.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

For those environmental officers being responsible, my understanding is that when Canadian Forces real property operations was centralized, those environmental officers were left out of the day-to-day operations of bases. They were not part of the chain of command. Can you confirm whether that's the case?

As well, can you comment on whether it's helpful to have the experts you're talking about, who have the expertise, actually be outside of that chain of command—not reporting to the ADM in charge of this, for example?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

Thank you for the question.

I'll ask Mr. Sattar to respond.

[Saleem Sattar, Director General, Environment and Sustainable Management, Department of National Defence]

Thank you for that question, because you're correct; at centralization, I don't want to say the environmental officer community stayed behind, but they stayed with the army, the navy and the air force. It makes sense, because they also have environmental impacts and environmental risks from their operations. Those environmental officers are there to watch out for the units and the companies in the exercises and the training operations that happen on those bases.

We have an agreement with all of those environmental officers to support ADM(IE), the infrastructure custodian. They support us as they support all of the lodgers on the bases with environmental services and advice. I rely on that community for their knowledge and their training. They help us identify those risks and manage environmental risk.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

They're providing expertise to both at the same time, both centrally and to base commanders—

[Saleem Sattar]

Correct.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

—even though they were centralized out of the day-to-day. They don't see the day-to-day operations, so how are they part of that reporting to the base commanders as well?

[Saleem Sattar]

[Technical difficulty—Editor] they're not part of the day-to-day, they don't belong to the RP ops group and they don't belong to the infrastructure chain of command, but they work very closely with. They are sometimes co-located or they attend regularly the briefings and the training and the collaboration with RP ops. There is close collaboration at the base level, so the base environmental officer knows what's going on at the base and can intervene on environmental risk.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

When a contaminated site is identified, what steps are taken to communicate the information to the Canadian Armed Forces members, their families and the public servants who work or live on the site? What legal responsibilities exist in the contaminated site plan or other legislation to ensure that the personnel are able to make an informed decision? I know that a lot of it's public; however, exactly what does that communications plan look like?

[Peter Hammerschmidt]

Thank you for the question.

It will, of course, depend on the assessment of the site and what it finds vis-à-vis the contaminant, the pathways and the receptors. If there is determined to be a significant risk, then steps will be taken to ensure that any adjacent or potentially affected stakeholders would be engaged. If there is a contaminant that can move off the site, whether it's by air, water, or soil, then appropriate measures will be taken to ensure that anyone who could be affected will be engaged.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have 30 seconds.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Maybe I'll bank it.