Evidence of meeting #130 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pfas.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
You talked a bit about the guidelines in the United States and Europe. You said they were stricter than here in Canada.
I would like to know whether you have a recommendation regarding the limit for PFAS that should be set here in Canada.
Full Professor, As an Individual
The United States is stricter, but for five or six very specific PFAS. It depends a bit on how the precautionary principle is applied. There are other PFAS that have chemical structures similar to the others, but for which we do not yet have all the toxicological information we need. If one PFAS molecule resembles another, but we have no evidence of its toxicity, do we assume it is not toxic and not regulate it? Do we assume that the resemblance is close enough for us to regulate that substance the same way as the others while awaiting further information?
That is the big difference between the United States, which regulates four of these substances, and Canada, where the regulations cover 25 of them. I think Health Canada's approach is the right one. At this point, a lot of information about toxicology is being published every day. We are going to clarify it, but while we are waiting to know where we stand, let's be cautious.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
You asked a question at the end of your testimony: why is it an independent researcher who identified this problem?
What can the Canadian government do? Should it take preventive measures? Could it do more of this kind of testing on its own initiative? Do you believe there is enough information to say that a certain site might contain somewhat more contaminants, to give the government an incentive to do more analyses? What are your recommendations in this regard?
Full Professor, As an Individual
A PFAS analysis in a private laboratory costs between $350 and $500. So it is a question of budget. You need to have the money to do the analyses. You also need to have laboratories that have the right capacities for detecting PFAS. Good laboratories have to have slightly higher standards when it comes to detection limits.
Take the Bagotville site, as an example. The military and the people from Health Canada were not completely surprised to learn there was a problem. They may have been a bit surprised at the scope of the data I presented, but they were not completely surprised. They had their suspicious about potential risks.
There has to be a combination of two things: there have to be the budgets for doing environmental monitoring, but also compulsory transparency mechanisms, so the results are genuinely available and published. At present, they can be accessed, but it is a bit obscure.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Madame Lambropoulos.
I'll just take note that we've gone for one and a half rounds, and Dr. Ferguson has been unable to interject, by either using the raise hand function or signalling by some means if he has something to contribute.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
It's disadvantageous being virtual as opposed to being present.
Mr. Simard, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Sauvé, you said that the people at the Bagotville base did not seem to be surprised at the information you presented to them.
I understand that in science, we do not deal in approximations. However, you explained earlier that there was a bouquet of PFAS that we could see as being like a fruit salad. If I can pick that image up again, I assume that one of the fruits found in the contaminated water at La Baie bears a strange resemblance to the fruit found in firefighting foam. Am I wrong about that?
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
You talked about dumps, where the buried garbage contains PFAS that are different. We might therefore say, in a way, that the source of water contamination is probably the PFAS from the foam used at the Bagotville base.
Full Professor, As an Individual
Given the profile of the PFAS in the La Baie water, contamination by firefighting foam is plausible. Contamination by a landfill site is not plausible, because the bouquet of PFAS would be more complex if it was old PFAS.
Now, do the firefighting foams come from Bagotville or not? I can't confirm it by doing a water analysis. However, the profile of the PFAS in the water is compatible with the profile of the PFAS found in the firefighting foam.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I can certify that there are not a lot of farmers around the Bagotville base who used firefighting foam.
Full Professor, As an Individual
It might come from a fire station or a firefighter training site.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Yes, I understand, but let's say the probability is low. I also don't want to put words in your mouth.
That said, you talked earlier about the current problem in the City of Saguenay, which has had to change the filters much more often than anticipated. Is this because it is a particular type of PFAS?
Full Professor, As an Individual
It is precisely because of the type of PFAS that is associated with certain recent firefighting foams, in which the particles are smaller and more difficult to eliminate.
One reason for the city not having the budget may also be because of the way the contract was organized. It could have been a turnkey contract where a certain amount would have been allocated for treating the water for five years, for example. Apparently, that is not what was agreed to in this case. There should perhaps have been greater vigilance in drafting the contract, in my opinion.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Simard. Sorry.
Madam Mathyssen, you have two and a half minutes.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Professor Wang, I'd like to take you again back to mercury, and it may not be as related to on-base contaminations. There are instances in Goose Bay, for example, where buildings were shut down because of its being used in dental work, for example. Do you see a lot of that in any of your research?
Professor, As an Individual
Definitely. Even though we call mercury a legacy, it's still ongoing. The major sources have been placed under control, but, yes, mercury continues to be used in certain applications.
With the new international treaty called Minamata Convention on Mercury, which Canada signed on to, there is a plan; there are limitations on how those practices can continue. I would say that, with time, as the convention starts to be more enforced, the application of mercury in dental practice, in thermostats and so on, should become less and less.
However, the challenge with mercury is that, even though it may be a very small amount that is used in dental practice, it doesn't take much for mercury to actually have a major impact. To some extent it's very similar to what we talked about with PFAS earlier and about which amount of it is safe. With contaminants like mercury, it's very difficult to prescribe a number for a guideline in water because this contaminant biomagnifies. Even though the concentration in water could be extremely low, by the time it gets accumulated in fish and in humans, the concentration could be high enough.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
We did an Arctic study that talked about the opening up of our Arctic, the increased transit through these areas and the fragility of the land in that regard. I'm interested to know about studies being done on the impacts on indigenous people in those areas, even in terms of the land, the food that they live off of, the traditional foods, that sort of thing. What kind of research is being done?
Professor, As an Individual
There are actually extensive studies going on in this country as part of a research network called ArcticNet. We've been monitoring contaminants, as well, as part of a northern contaminants program within this country. In many cases, there have been decades of data, both from ecosystems and food items, all the way to human health, but in the meantime...
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Unfortunately, Ms. Mathyssen has left you no time to answer the question.
Mr. Bezan, you have five minutes.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank our witnesses for joining us today.
Professor Sauvé, in your testing with La Baie near the Bagotville air base, how many tests have you done since your first report came out?
Full Professor, As an Individual
Well, originally we just had one or two, so we had to confirm that, and then we had about 10, which were doubled by what the ministry and the city measured. I went back this summer to take another 15 samples, to see what the situation was, whether the treatment was working and whether the others were still...so I don't know. There may be 25, more or less, from around La Baie.