National Defence Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Erin Zimmerman]

Okay. You're not being cavalier. You're being somebody who is asking such an important question, because your question is actually connected to ours.

I'm going to base everything I tell you on fact or on something odd I have noticed, because that is how I've been running for the last 12 months.

Right now, the fact is that PFAS is being cleaned up in North Bay, for $20 million. PFAS is being cleaned up with you guys. We've had TCE cleaned up from Shannon. Why is that? That brings in Gagetown, but we'll discuss that another time.

Why is this issue important? TCE and PFAS are what Health Canada is allowed to see. That is why you guys are being classified differently, because Health Canada is seeing it when it enters the communities, because then the province and the federal government can get Health Canada involved.

Health Canada is a department. Let's look at it as the pyramid that it is. The only person who can come onto a DND base is not Health Canada. They're a department. They can't tell on each other publicly. This is a problem. They can't. Neither can the environment commission. The only people who can come are the labour board. What does the labour board have to say?

After lots of emailing with them, I've realized that the problem is that if DND can show they are bringing in privatized firms to do the testing, like on building 143, where they've also done the list of contaminants, they will not come in, because they don't have enough to issue a complaint. They don't have enough, because there's enough money being spread out that they should know....

I'm going to tell you what's happening with 143, and I might not have a job when I go back: 143 has an issue. First, I found out.... Do you know that a CR-4, a procurement finance clerk, had to run around in the middle of the night and look at every single environmental assessment she could pull from the United States to be able to slip it to everybody who is DND to put it on...? Do you know that they took all of those chemicals off?

If you do not test for it, it is not there. Is that how we're closing our sites? We know that DND, based on ADM(IE) testimony and the fact that Environment here was sitting on the TCE board as what is an assistant deputy minister.... They told you TCE. They told you what Health Canada knows. They have not told you what is on those bases. That is the problem: Health Canada cannot come in. The environmental board will not come in, because DND is showing, based on paper and statistics, that they are looking into it. That is a problem. We don't split contracts. That is an ill intent. We need to decide what is our intent behind our actions.

Now we have criteria issues. How does a pile sitting right by the day care centre, blowing—where my son went for a year—not pass when it has contaminants that last for over a thousand years in our soil, like you were dealing with, like so many of us are dealing with? The only thing I can come up with, based on talking to retired members, is criteria: How are we classifying the sites? Are we looking at it as far away behind the mess? Guess what? If that is it, it's different criteria, because it's not by a person.

Why are some of our sites closing immediately after being knocked down but the land isn't...? Because, based on CCME documentation, policy and guidelines—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me. I'm just—

[Erin Zimmerman]

Oh, I'm sorry, Chair. I'm a lot—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I appreciate it. I have been running a very slack clock, shall we say?.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I would just like to point something out, Mr. Chair. I believe that no one should be afraid to testify before a committee. I hope no pressure is brought to bear on Ms. Zimmerman because of her testimony. If that does happen, I urge her to get back in contact with all of the members of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I think we'd all see it the same way, Mr. Simard.

Madam Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I too want to thank everybody for sharing their stories today. It is extremely important that we get to make some changes, which are very clearly needed and, as many of you said, not only for yourselves, but for the next generation.

I did want to ask about this. It seems to me that in many of the studies that I've been a part of, and in conversations around DND, especially when it comes to sexual misconduct within the military, it was made very clear that there had to be an external review, right?

There had to be, and rightly so. The government is trying to ensure that cases are not internally investigated. This seems to me to be very much a parallel: there's an internal investigation and things aren't being brought into the public. There's this idea that it has to happen under a cloud of national security. We've heard many times that DND is risk averse. Does this fall into all of that? Is that your opinion?

[Erin Zimmerman]

Yes. I'm not saying this to be awful to DND. I love DND. It's my life. The people are my family.

What I am telling you is that DND, to me, is about the human beings who work there and what we do. A system has been built. It's built on budget cuts and a lack of positions. We keep the same amount, but we do more and more. We transition people, and we lose things. We've created a system. The problem is that we have people in high positions who are educated and should be there. However, there's a lot to lose.

I've realized personally what it's going to be like if I'm unemployed with Parkinson's and a visual impairment. I'm great at my job. I am good at policy. I'm going to tell you something, though. Who wants to hire a visually impaired person with Parkinson's disease? That is my reality. My brain doesn't stop.

I want this to be fixed. Yes, it has to be out of DND's hands not because it's not made of amazing people but because we have created a system where we can't tell the truth. If we tell the truth, we get demoted. We lose our jobs. We lose our incomes. We hurt our families. We leave in disgrace. That's not what we need to do here. We need to rally together, and be stronger and better. My dad was RCMP for 35 years. My grandparents served. My sister serves. My brother-in-law serves. My niece is growing up in this queue. We are an amazing group of human beings.

I am not disloyal. I'm disloyal to the system that was built, which cannot look at this.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You started to cover what needs to happen for investigations.

Where is the ILO, in particular, pointing on this topic? Would you recommend there be an entire rethinking of this idea of stewardship? I would assume it's for all bases. How do we start that?

[Erin Zimmerman]

We already tried to change this.

When the program started in 2005, we were able to look at how the system fell apart. Guess what? The federal government left us a bread crumb trail. The Auditor General came out with a report in 2012 stating that, with budget cuts and lack of positions, they knew the safety of their people was at risk. However, preventative safety didn't matter, because they had fewer positions and less money. We are doing everything. We are all doing three full-time jobs with one person. This isn't a DND issue. This is a real issue of time.

I'm sorry. I got off topic.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I was talking about the ILO.

[Erin Zimmerman]

Oh, the ILO is very much.... I would like to ask you, during COVID.... If we don't recognize occupational illness.... Health Canada is a department they cannot talk out. Who's paying for cancer treatment for service-related occupational illness? Is that through Health Canada during a medical emergency? If we do not have the ILO, how am I going to retire? Do you know my reality? I will be a few years short of retiring well based on the time when I'm going to have to retire, or I will need work accommodations that will probably not be given to me after this. We have to support people, because then they go on Service Canada. We are spending the money. The money has already been spent on all of our veterans, but it is being spent out of the wrong pocket.

I'm going to tell you something. I'm part of an invisible demographic, and so is Dave. What happens is this: If you are unhealthy, you usually stay in and flip to a public service role. You're sick at the beginning. We see people with smaller illnesses. You are not reaching universal.... I can't say it. Soldier qualifications.... What this means is that you were....

I'm sorry. Am I done?

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

It's universality of service.

[Erin Zimmerman]

Yes, that's it exactly.

We are releasing members before we get their data. Remember, we have CAF data. I do not exist. Do you know that service managers at the Legion have now figured out they can never put down “cancer”? Cancer is under the disability index. It is not under the one you get for occupational illness. What is happening is that they're putting it in per symptom. I'm telling you that we have RCMP now—I'm doing their VAC claims on the side, in the evening—who are thinking it's occupational illness, because they have—

Okay. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

As you can see, colleagues, our time is almost expired, but I still want to get in another round. If we're tight, we won't lose the room too quickly. We could do two minutes.

It's two minutes for Mr. Tolmie, then two minutes over here.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I understand that we're compressed for time here.

My understanding is that base commanders have a legal obligation to report contaminated sites, that there are things like fix apps and that they're the custodians of the base. We want to go from contaminated sites to prevention and want to look after the next generation, as you talked about. What's your perspective on that? What should be implemented to be able to close the gaps between the different organizations and the reporting?

[Erin Zimmerman]

We must have people who are educated in the roles they're going into. You cannot expect a DND flight surgeon or doctor to have the expertise they require for occupational illness. We need to be transparent. If we do not have funding, we need to get resourceful. We're talking about protected properties. Do you know that the majority of the stuff that I can tell is protected is way lower than the unprotected? The issue is that we can. Security doesn't matter. We can bring in other people, but we have to bring in Health Canada.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Are you saying that the expertise on base right now is not there?

[Erin Zimmerman]

No, bases managed real property up until 2016, and then it was pulled and went to ADM(IE). The ADM(IE) took over, and there are two audits: one done in 2018, and one done in 2022.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Just for clarification, we might need to know what ADM(IE) stands for.

[Erin Zimmerman]

It's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Environment.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay. I just want that on the record.

[Erin Zimmerman]

Environment falls underneath them, and they were both here together that day. They had a lot of information.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay, thank you.

[Erin Zimmerman]

We need more expertise.