Evidence of meeting #130 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pfas.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
December 5th, 2024 / 10:10 a.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much.
I want to say, first of all, thank you to our three witnesses today, who came in front of this committee. I think we all can attest to how emotional it is for you. Some of you were nervous, and I would say that you did very well, so I commend you for this. I thank you for your service.
With a little bit of time left, I would like to hear from our three witnesses about key recommendations that you would like to see as part of this study, please.
I would like, Mr. Chair, maybe the three witnesses to say a few words to close.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
It's going to be difficult for all three to speak in a minute and a half. How would it be if we start with Ms. Zimmerman and then go to Mr. Hovington if we have time?
As an Individual
It's about transparency of history. We know for a fact why I pulled 20 years of contamination ATIs that were already completed. It's that the federal government doesn't change. We just get smaller. What ends up happening is that we follow the same things. We need to go through what happened in Shannon, because there's a lot of new information out there, and we need to go through what's happened with the Senate committee regarding Gagetown, because this is what this is about, and all of these stories put together. It's about all these stories put together.
Why was I told by union to leave Moose Jaw? That is a big question. Why do I not have union representation? That is a very big question. I haven't heard from them in months. We have a situation where DND is too close to itself and where too many people know a little bit. No one knew what happened in history. No one has enough that we are ever guilty of anything, but we are scared that our positions are going to be cut and that we are going to be totally blamed based on historical stuff. With historical stuff, transparency, the ILO and Veterans Affairs, we will start moving forward out of this mess.
Liberal
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Zimmerman, I find your testimony not just deeply moving, but also extremely distressing, I won't pretend otherwise. I don't know whether you can submit a document to the committee describing the entire process you have to follow to have an occupational disease recognized. I think it might be useful for us to understand the steps that must be taken. I understand that you probably have to meet with a doctor, first, but there are certainly other steps to prove that exposure to a contaminant is the cause of your occupational disease.
I don't want to be intrusive, but I wonder whether the three witnesses might not send us information detailing the steps they had to take, to have their occupational disease recognized.
As an Individual
I believe it's very hard for occupational disease. It's something that's a specialty. I want you to know that I am living in Saskatchewan. That means that I don't have doctors, but I also don't have the information for the WCB and VAC.
My husband and I had very nice savings. They are gone. I needed it to be able to proceed with this because I had to know from a doctor, a doctor specialized in visual impairment and neurological conditions, that they felt the same as I do—that it is toxic related.
I had to spend my own money on hotels so that I could come here today with facts. I'm a facts person. I'm a data person. I like policies, and I like pulling them apart and seeing how they work. However, I'm going to tell you something: It's very hard to physically have the money, and I'm lucky that I am in the age demographic I am. If somebody younger were sick, they couldn't get this assistance.
Liberal
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
We've been told several times that there is a great deal of openness and information out in the public.
Were any of you told, when you started to work or during your course of time working on this highly toxic site, that it was highly toxic?
As an Individual
Never.
I have also gone back to safety officers on base until the time the program started, and not one of them was informed until recently about the program. When they saw civilians getting sick, general safety didn't even know to tell them to report.
I've contacted people from multiple bases because now my phone rings off the hook all night long. I take messages from people with questions. None of them were disclosed to, and they are all across the country.
Chief Fire Inspector, As an Individual
Yes, I've been doing that since 1996 and have never been told anything otherwise.
We used a lot of PFOS foam between 1996 and 1998 until the government shut us down to not have any fires there. Yes, foam is very bad for your health; we all know that. The previous board discussed that at length.
As you can tell, I'm sick from it, so thank you for listening.
As an Individual
Our building was also built on top of the foam—just to let you know—with one foot of dirt taken out in 1992.
Conservative
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Oh, you've given me another two minutes. Okay, I was ready to pack up.
Tell me a little bit more about building 143.
As an Individual
Building 143 was built in 1992, and in 1982.... I have talked to some retired members who caught hold of other people who had seen environmental...doing sampling around that area.
Yes, we don't know what PFOS is, but we also know that in that area, they had fuel to start the fires. It's the hydrocarbons. Yes, PFOS is just as big, but I'm going to tell you that the DND is going to tell you about PFOS.
I'm sorry.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
I'm just going to.... There is a thought that's just come into my head.
One of the things that we heard is that there are living lists, buildings that have been knocked down that may have been on contaminated sites. Are you aware of the living lists? Have you been able to access those?
As an Individual
There is a way, and I'm not going to tell you how to access protected protected B buildings, measurements and years built. I cannot find out any criteria on the actual contaminants, but I want you to remember that the DND was the one making the lists. It decided.
Conservative
Fraser Tolmie Conservative Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK
Okay, but what I am saying is that, based on what they're saying, there are living lists that people can access.
As an Individual
No, the living list is the unprotected properties, but it is just for the contaminants they found between 1990 and 1993 when they did the cross-Canada environmental assessment for the DND.