National Defence Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I'm very proud to serve as the MP.

We've been hearing testimony from the Treasury Board, from National Defence and Veterans Affairs, and we understand that they have a list. They have an understanding that there are contaminated sites and that they have to deal with contamination and the Department of Health, but you've mentioned the labour code.

I asked, in one of the meetings we had with Veterans Affairs, if they looked after civilian employees. Would you be classified as a veteran, or would you be classified as a civilian in order to deal with the health issues you're struggling with?

[Erin Zimmerman]

After I went through all of the policy for VAC, and through the policies and management of how occupational illness is dealt with, and went through the policies for WCB, it has become very evident that it will be very difficult for me to...well, I know I probably will never receive VACD, to be honest, with the policies the way they are.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Why is that?

[Erin Zimmerman]

It is caused by the fact.... If you recall, at the ACVA committee, there was a recommendation 17 that was exceptionally important. They have to use a calculation. None of us at this table, even though we're very educated people, are educated in the proper way, like the scientists before. They need to be able to calculate. I cannot tell you that my Parkinson's disease, with my education, is caused by the contaminated site. I can tell you what my doctors have said. However, to be able to prove it, I need to have a map and the list of contaminants, and I have to know how long I was there, but you guys haven't even allowed people to apply for WCB because they can't even get that information.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

What do you mean by people not being able to apply to WCBs? Are you talking about civilian employees?

[Erin Zimmerman]

They don't know to apply, number one, because they don't know what their cancers could possibly be caused by, since they would have to know what the ILO is. Look at the ILO. The United Nations has done this very well. It was updated in 2010. You can go and take a look to see whether the contaminants you were on match your disease, within science. That's always changing, as we know. We need scientists from the United Nations to do this.

VAC and CAF, from my understanding, are using something called an index. I've done multiple interviews with people who are service managers doing VAC claims on the side, and old, retired medical staff and admin staff. What is happening is that we are probably using something called “the guideline” or “the index”. We are deciding which occupational illnesses we will let through the gate. We have girls from the Women's Health Initiative who can't get compensation due to the fact that they can't get the calculation. They wouldn't even get a chance to get the calculation in a VRAP appeal, because the VRAP appeal needs them to pass the first gate.

I apologize.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're out of time.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I have a lot more questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Don't we all?

Ms. Lapointe, happy birthday, though this is a strange time to wish you happy birthday.

Anyway, go ahead.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

On behalf of everyone here on the committee, I want to tell you that we are very appreciative and grateful that you're here today. Hearing about your experiences is very difficult. I can assure you that no one in this room will forget your testimony here today.

Mr. Hovington, I believe you were the recipient of a Governor General's award for excellence in emergency services, so I want to acknowledge your service.

[Dave Hovington]

Thank you.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I would like to ask you what support or assistance you received from the department following this exposure, and what support or assistance you weren't able to access that you believe would have been helpful.

[Dave Hovington]

I was guided by one general safety officer to apply for workers' comp in Saskatchewan, which worked very well for me. Within two weeks, they started to pay for all of my medications and for all of the time off I had to use to go to Regina for treatments, or to see the oncologist and whatnot. She also advised me to go to VAC, which I did. I have yet to get any reply from them.

Provincially, as soon as they saw “firefighter” and “multiple myeloma”, it was automatic. I think something similar should be happening with VAC. It should be reflecting that. That would help a lot.

Other than that, if it weren't for Erin Zimmerman, man, we would be in the dark out there. She's done a lot of research and guided us through everything, which all of us public service employees really appreciate.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I want to tell all of the witnesses here today that I wish to provide them with a forum to further inform us about their and their families' experiences.

Please feel free to share that and continue to provide the experiences you have.

What changes would you like to see implemented within the department to ensure that the well-being and safety of employees working in potentially hazardous environments are given the utmost importance?

This is for any witness who feels comfortable speaking.

[Erin Zimmerman]

I believe that, first of all, we need to talk about transparency and what transparency means. I'm going to tell you—not just because we've served your country—why this is so important to Canadian citizens. Other people have mentioned that we have communities that surround these bases. If we are not coming up with the proper data because we are "interpreting" it and giving you the DND's interpretation, it means that we are in a dangerous place for public safety.

I am concerned for my family, but why are we all here? These people on the screen are incredibly brave. You have no idea, living day in and day out, what we have gone through for the last 12 months. However, why are we here? We're here because we're the older generation. I always called myself the mom, the mom of the base. The kids come in at 20 years old, learning to be pilots. Guess what? They are incredible. They are smart. They send us the best. The problem is that they're alone. They need somebody older who has four kids, like me, who can listen to life.

Why haven't I left with Parkinson's disease? I could possibly, at least, get disability; I don't know if I can. I'm very scared to leave because I have four children who are going through their education, and a family. I am doing it for the next generation. If you tell me that I don't get a dime of compensation, if I know for a fact that a mother does not have to have a discussion with her son about disability after 10 years of medication wearing off and about how Parkinson's will become a big part of our lives, I want to know that there's a woman out there who raises her child and never knows I exist.

The people here, as well.... We do this for the next generation. We do this for the Canadian public. We do this for the kids in the day care centres and for every community. We fight for you. That's why we're here.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Zimmerman.

[An hon. member]

Hear, hear!

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Yes.

Are there others who want to share what changes they would like to see implemented?

[Erin Zimmerman]

I think they both have a lot to say, but Shaunna is very vocal about this.

You go.

[Shaunna Plourde]

The biggest thing, to me, is transparency. They're talking about doing these testings and that kind of thing, but I don't believe that we're getting the real results. They're getting hidden. They're getting softened, if you want to say that. When we get the test results....

For instance, in building 143, they brought somebody in to do some air quality testing. That was done for two months. We got the report back, and apparently the building is just fine. There's nothing wrong with the air quality.

Explain to me, then, why we have had three people I know of personally—and Erin does as well—who have passed away from breast cancer and who were in that building. There are other people who have passed away or are sick in that building. We have taken a monitor and gone down.... Poor Dave with blood cancer went down in a crawl space with the monitor, and the monitor was going crazy. However, everything's fine in that building.

There is an absolute disconnect here. To me, things are being hidden. Things are being shovelled under the rug so that nobody knows. It's all kept hidden.

My 30-year-old daughter came in to me yesterday after having tests done at the doctor's office. She most likely will never be able to have children. She's 30 years old. It has been attributed to living in private married quarters on the base. The private married quarters that we lived in have now been dismantled. They're torn down. Why? They were supposed to be so safe.

To me, the DND is supposed to be there to care for and protect Canadians. It is our safety. I'm a Canadian, just like you, just like everybody else. Why have I not been safe? Why have the other people on that base—military, civilian and contractor—not been told? Why have they not been kept safe?

We've all given our lives to Canadians, to protect Canadians, but we're Canadians, too, and we haven't been protected.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Yes. Thank you very much.

Mr. Sauvé is next, but he will be speaking in French.

For those of you who are not bilingual, you can switch. We hope it's—

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I don't know whether Mr. Sauvé is going to speak, but Mr. Simard is definitely going to be speaking in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

No worries, Mr. Chair.

What the witnesses are saying is very important and touching. That said, I would like to take 30 seconds to introduce a motion on behalf of Ms. Normandin. Right after that, I am going to address the witnesses. The motion reads as follows:

Given that the Bagotville military base is responsible for the PFAS contamination of the drinking water sources of nearly 8,000 residents of the La Baie area, and that the $15.5 million granted to the City of Saguenay by the government to ensure the treatment of these waters will be completely exhausted in July 2025, with the treatment of the waters requiring six times as many filters as planned, the Committee believes that the Minister of National Defence should enter into a formal agreement with the City of Saguenay to ensure that all costs associated with the temporary treatment of PFAS contaminated water and the establishment of a permanent treatment plant at La Baie are covered by the federal government, failing which the citizens of Saguenay will have to assume these increased costs through an increase in their municipal taxes of more than $7 million annually, and asks the Chair to report back to the House as soon as possible.

We will be able to debate this later, Mr. Chair.

I am now going to turn quickly to the witnesses. I'm sorry, I didn't want to be cavalier, but I had to introduce that motion.

Ms. Zimmerman, what I very clearly understood from your testimony is the lack of transparency and the difficulty in getting occupational diseases recognized for members of the military who are exposed to contaminants and toxic substances or chemicals on bases.

When you are a civilian employee, there are mechanisms for having occupational diseases recognized. In Quebec, it is the CNESST, the Commission des normes, de l'équité, de la santé et de la sécurité au travail, which can recognize these diseases. Health Canada can also determine what types of chemical substances have an impact on health. And there is certainly a medical service on the various bases.

How do these three types of services coordinate among themselves? Is there sufficient coordination for you to be able to have your occupational diseases recognized?