Evidence of meeting #131 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gagetown.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're unfortunately....
I apologize to all of the witnesses. I appreciate that it's particularly difficult when you can't see the chair, but I have to keep a handle on the time here, or other people get mad at me.
Madam Lambropoulos, you have six minutes.
December 10th, 2024 / 4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here to answer some of our questions today. I really appreciate their opening up about these issues and having the courage to come here today. It's not easy to talk about this.
Mr. Goode, towards the end of my six minutes, I would like to give you an opportunity to finish your opening remarks, because I know you had specific recommendations you started citing. I would like to give you a minute to finish those.
However, I will start with some questions.
My first question is for Ms. Beauchamp.
You spoke about the issues your family has faced because of being on contaminated sites. At one point, you mentioned a sunset clause for some of the benefits people could receive if they have been affected. You said people who are affected but whose symptoms started to develop after 2011 would no longer get those benefits.
Can you explain that a little more and give us a recommendation, perhaps, specifically on that point?
As an Individual
I'll use myself as a case here. I was diagnosed with three cancers in 2017. I opted for certain medical procedures, or complementary medicine. I had nowhere to go except to use my own money. There was a statement made that Veterans Affairs compensates and provides benefits only to veterans. The ex gratia payment that was provided in 2011 also included veterans, civilians and family members, so, to me, that was an inaccurate statement.
Because there was a sunset clause, the last payments that could be issued through the ex gratia were on December 31, 2011. There was no way to apply for any compensation after that date.
Where I see a problem is that some illnesses and some cancers are diagnosed later on. Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma is generally diagnosed after the age of 60. When they did their study in the fact-finding project, they never took into account long-term illnesses. Currently there's really no recourse for any civilian member, whether it be an employee of national defence, a family member of a veteran, or a community member who may have been affected, especially with the dioxins at Gagetown. When I was growing up there, for many individuals and many family members, we engaged in recreation where they sprayed. We fished in the brooks. We drank the spring water. We ate the blueberries. I mean, we burned wood in the wintertime.
Throughout my life, I had many illnesses, and I lost a child three days after birth at the age of 20. I had endometriosis, and I had colitis. How does one person end up with all those illnesses?
At the age of 61, I end up being diagnosed with three separate cancers, not related at all. On compensation, I think there needs to be some brainstorming to identify a framework that will help those who have been exposed to toxic chemicals, including even the ones today like the PFAS.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you very much.
There is another question I want answered, and I also want to give some time to Mr. Goode.
Because health services are provincial, what recommendations would you like the provincial government to implement in relation to health services for people affected by harmful chemicals on contaminated sites?
I'll give the floor to Mr. Goode. I don't know if you have any answers to that question, but maybe you can work your recommendations into that answer as well.
Chairman, Brats In The Battlefield Association Inc.
I'm definitely not a medical expert, but in New Brunswick, I mean, they knew as early as 1964 of the toxic and persistent nature of the chemicals that were being sprayed at Gagetown, yet they did nothing. I think it's vitally important that they seriously look at the history, their history of denial, and move forward. We're ready to sit down and talk to them and help bring this to a closure that's beneficial to everyone—New Brunswick, other provinces, and the government.
When it comes to health care, yes, I understand there's a bit of an issue between the federal and the provincial, and I personally don't know how they're going to get around that. Obviously there has to be a mutual agreement that's beneficial to the citizens of their respective provinces.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We're going to have to leave it there.
Mr. Simard, you may go ahead. You have six minutes.
Mr. Simard will speak in French, so as long as you're set to that or reply to him in French....
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'll start with you, Ms. Beauchamp.
I have questions about the process for recognizing illnesses.
In your opening remarks, you mentioned the sunset clause ending benefits in 2011. How did the process work in your case, when you got your diagnosis from your doctor? What steps did you take to have the Canadian Armed Forces recognize your illness as an occupational disease?
As an Individual
I recognized that there were no more applications. It was stated right on the website, actually—I follow the government's websites as well—that there would be no more payments after 2011, so I did not apply. Given that I had three cancers, I was not in a position physically or mentally to even go that route. Instead, I decided to advocate after I finished my treatment.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I completely understand.
That said, there is no mechanism in place. That is what I want to be very clear about and what I'd like you to make the committee understand. There is currently no mechanism for you to have the Department of National Defence, or DND, recognize your occupational illness. As I understand it, in your case, there is currently no mechanism for you to do that or to get any support from the department.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Very good. That's clear.
You were diagnosed by a health professional, a doctor. I assume you have information showing that your likely exposure to certain chemicals could have caused your health issue.
As an Individual
Here's where some of the difficulty is confusing. I was diagnosed here in Ottawa. Where the confusion lies is that when you mention to any physician, “Well, I grew up in Gagetown, New Brunswick, where they sprayed Agent Orange, Agent White and Agent Purple,” they look at you with a very confused face.
Where I see the problem is that there's no recognition of illnesses from exposure, and I believe that would be nationally. Within Canada, there would be very few provincial governments that would have a list of exposures. It's basically very similar in VAC and DND, because the lists are not cohesive either, so perhaps what needs to be worked on is a cohesive list of illnesses and diseases related to exposures.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
That's very surprising.
I am from Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean. It's home to the company Rio Tinto, previously known as Alcan. Many diseases, particularly cancers, are known to be linked to the jobs performed by the people at those plants. The type of disease they develop, bladder cancer or what have you, tells doctors that it may be due to exposure to chemicals at Alcan or another aluminum smelter. That is a form of recognition.
What you are telling me is that DND has no framework for identifying diseases former members of the armed forces may develop as a result of their exposure to chemicals or toxic substances.
As an Individual
It doesn't appear to be.... It appears, from talking with Ms. Zimmerman—because we've collaborated on certain things—that something that was noticed was that DND follows the ILO's—the International Labour Organization's—illnesses, and Veterans Affairs has a separate list.
I guess what I'm communicating here today is that perhaps it is time to have a cohesive list that everyone is following, so that when people are diagnosed, it's more recognized.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Ms. Beauchamp, I would find it very helpful if you could provide the committee with a list of your efforts to have your illness recognized, as well as the services that you did not receive.
Mr. Salisbury, do you, as a health specialist, think DND could establish a list of illnesses linked to chemical exposure and do what's necessary to ensure that armed forces members exposed to those chemicals at the very least have some recourse with respect to their occupational illness?
If industry can do it, I think DND can do it too.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
That's an important question. Unfortunately, Mr. Simard has left you no time to answer it. Maybe there will be an opportunity in the future.
Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes, please.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you.
Thank you to the witnesses for appearing with us today.
Mr. Goode and Ms. Beauchamp, in both of your briefing notes to the committee—thank you for giving them to us in advance—you referenced different ATIPs, access to information studies and documents, that show the disconnect between the Furlong commission findings, the government's public statements and verified factual evidence.
Can you table these documents with the committee so that we have the clear pathways on that?
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
It's the documentation you referred to, the ATIPs and the documents that you have. Can you submit those to the committee?
As an Individual
Okay. I'll let Gary speak to that. A lot of the ATIP documents were obtained in 2004. Another group at that time solicited the government for ATIP documentations. I've read them, but Gary was the one who worked with the group that obtained them.
Chairman, Brats In The Battlefield Association Inc.
Yes, I can comment on that.
That was DND's own document, as I said earlier. They lost it through the passage of time and didn't present it to the CFB Gagetown and area fact-finding project. However, a lovely lady with the Agent Orange Association of Canada found it with no problem. It was presented at the theatre at CFB Gagetown, when they had the town hall explaining to the community members of Oromocto and Gagetown that it was only 2.5 barrels over a seven-day period in 1966-67. Then again, Kenneth Dobbie, who at that time was the president of the Agent Orange Association, stepped up to the microphone and clearly stated what was sprayed, and when, and how much.
If you go by DND's own document, it's in there—exactly what they sprayed, when they sprayed and how much they sprayed. It's not a lie and not an exaggeration to say that, per acre, more of these chemicals were sprayed at CFB Gagetown than were sprayed in Vietnam during that entire war. This is not a fallacy.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Okay. I think having these documents with the committee would be helpful for the study, for sure.
Dr. Salisbury, I would like to shift to you. You highlighted in your opening remarks that “disease and environmental hazards have caused more casualties...than combat itself”. It's incredible. In last week's testimony, we heard from civilian employees and veterans from Moose Jaw. We heard that the base had failed to resolve the known contaminations, or even to inform individuals directly impacted. We heard about the devastating impacts this has had since the centralization of the Canadian Forces real property operations group. The ADM(IE) oversees contamination sites on DND land, but the day-to-day monitoring and the management of those individual sites is delegated to base commanders, wing commanders and environment officers. These are uniformed officers who are outside the chain of command and the ADM.
From your experience, can you talk about that as a problem? What do you see in terms of the disconnect that exists?
Col (Ret'd) David Salisbury
Thanks very much for the question.
I actually had the pleasure of serving in Moose Jaw for three years. I was the Snowbirds flight surgeon for three years, from 1983 to 1986. I would have to say, actually, that when this issue came to the fore, I was astounded. As the base surgeon in Moose Jaw, I had no knowledge whatsoever of there being contaminated sites present at that time.
Now, that was in the eighties, and I must admit that we've moved forward on how we think about that. For me, the problem is the disconnect between all the different parties that potentially could be affected. We have three groups on any given base that can be affected. There are the uniformed members and the civilian employees, and then there are the families, many of whom live on the base or in the base environs. They do not have an integrated medical provision system.
The uniformed personnel receive their medical care from uniformed or, often now, contract doctors. Civilian employees are responsible for getting their own health care in the local area. They are supposed to be watched by occupational health from Health Canada, but given the numbers, that's probably not going to happen very efficiently. There are small numbers of employees, and you're not going to dedicate an occupational health physician—or even an occupational health nurse—to 60, 70 or even 200 employees. It's not within the resources of the department.
Last but not least, the poor families.... Els bumped around with me for 29 years and went through so many different doctors that we can't keep track of them all. I had 11 different postings in 11 different places. My medical documents follow me when I go from one posting to another. For the families, that doesn't happen, and every province has its own system.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
We'll go to our second five-minute round.
Ms. Gallant, you have five minutes, please.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you.
From your records, are there currently still discarded Agent Orange barrels disposed of on Base Gagetown? Does anyone...? Does no one know?