National Defence Committee on April 27th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order. I see a quorum.

We are 45 minutes late starting. It's not exactly military time, so I apologize to the assembled generals.

We are going to get squeezed at both ends because we're anticipating a vote. The bells will probably start ringing in about an hour from now. I am seeking from members unanimous consent to possibly continue for a further 15 minutes during the half-hour bells so that we don't abuse our witnesses' time any more than we absolutely have to.

Do I have your consent to carry on 15 minutes after the bells ring?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, General Allen, General Carignan, General Bourgon and General Brodie for your assistance in this study. This has been a study on recruitment and retention. I know that each one of you has a lot of insights to share with the committee.

As I understand it, General Allen will lead with an opening statement, and we'll get into questions shortly thereafter.

With that, I will ask General Allen for her opening statement.

[Lieutenant-General Frances J. Allen, Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to be here today to discuss some of the challenges that are facing the Canadian Armed Forces as it pertains to recruitment and retention and our plans to address them.

The CDS would very much have liked to have been here today; however, he was called out of the country to work with allies on collaborative efforts related to Ukraine.

The past couple of years have been tough for the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have been working hard to transform our institutional culture to make sure that everybody who wears the uniform has a workplace where they feel psychologically safe, valued and free to be their authentic selves and to contribute to the very best of their abilities.

This has been taking place in the context of a global security environment that is more volatile and more dangerous than it has been in generations. The current war in Ukraine is front of mind for us, but it's only the most visible manifestation of a struggle that is ongoing between liberal democracies and autocracies around the globe, and it's been simmering for some time.

Meanwhile, extremism, cultural conflict and polarization are challenges to our democratic institutions.

Climate change and related natural disasters are driving instability and threatening people and property everywhere, including here at home in Canada.

In fact, domestic operations in this regard have become a major draw on the CAF's operational capacity, to the point at which our capacity for other core missions is affected.

We've always been ready and able to augment civilian disaster responses, but in recent years this has taken up an exponentially larger amount of bandwidth.

To be clear, between 2014 and 2019, the CAF devoted exponentially more personnel and days to domestic responses compared to the previous five‑year period.

Canada needs a strong armed forces now as much as ever, and we are committed to always being there for Canadians, but intense competition in the private sector for Canada's best and brightest, particularly in many of the skills trades, and pandemic restrictions driven by necessary but constraining public health directives have combined to impact our recruiting efforts.

The flip side of the recruiting coin, of course, is retention. An important part of retention is what we call the quality of service of our members' experience. This includes working in a place characterized by respect and camaraderie, with modern infrastructure and leading-edge equipment, and having purpose, including meaningful deployment opportunities around the globe.

CAF members also face the same life challenges as every other Canadian, which are, in many cases, exacerbated by the unique nature of our work.

We all know the cost of living is soaring. Finding affordable housing is challenging. And CAF members are called upon to pick up stakes and move across the country on a regular basis. This is difficult for them, for their spouses and partners, and for their children, who have to leave schools and friends. And when we're trying to convince talented young Canadians to consider a career in the Canadian Forces, this upheaval is obviously not a selling point.

Addressing this is a priority for the CAF, and it's a personal priority for the CDS.

We have launched an ambitious program of reconstitution, a program that's laying the foundation for the CAF into the future. The first line of effort in this, our first priority, is our people—making sure a career in the CAF appeals to every Canadian.

The world is more dangerous now than it has been for a long time, and our nation is increasingly under threat. Canada needs its armed forces more than ever and ensuring we have a viable and relevant military is a national imperative.

It's incumbent upon all of us, including the duly elected representatives at all levels from coast to coast, to help make sure Canadians know about the opportunities that exist for a career in the CAF. We can't do this alone.

We're rebuilding the CAF to be better, stronger and more focused on the future—more diverse, more resilient, more inclusive and more relevant to Canadians.

I will stop here, Mr. Chair, with my comments. We all look forward to your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, General Allen.

Ms. Gallant, you have six minutes, please.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to all the generals for your service to Canada.

Royal Military College provides a fully subsidized undergraduate program for officer cadets. Would you say that RMC is critical to recruiting and educating commissioned officers?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I'll talk briefly about it and then I'll turn this over to the chief of military personnel.

Certainly, the Royal Military College is one avenue for creating the officers the Canadian Armed Forces needs. It does produce and provide degreed officers into the Canadian Forces, but there are also other avenues. For example, I'm a regular officer training program officer, but I did my education at a civilian university rather than a military college.

I can turn the floor over to General Bourgon, who can perhaps speak to the broader numbers associated with officer intake.

[Major-General Lise Bourgon, Acting Chief of Military Personnel, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence]

Thank you. It's a very good question.

When you look at the two entry programs with the Royal Military College, the one in Saint-Jean and the one in Kingston, their strength is the four pillars. You have, of course, the university degree. You have the bilingualism. Officer cadets have to graduate with a level in their secondary language. You also have the physical fitness aspect and the professional development.

On the education and the professional development, when they graduate as officers in the Canadian Armed Forces, they're a little more rounded. However, other officer cadets, once they graduate from civilian university, catch up to the military college; it takes a bit longer. There is a true strength behind the four pillars of the Royal Military College degree program.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, General.

How many suicides occurred at RMC last year?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I don't have that number. I could ask General Bourgon if she has that at her fingertips.

[MGen Lise Bourgon]

I believe there was only one last year, but I would have to confirm that.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Okay.

I was told there were three confirmed since September of last year, with one attempted.

There seems to be a real push to refrain from providing any type of counselling to the students who are remaining there. Would that be conducive to keeping cadets in the program, for them to continue on and be a part of the recruitment and successfully become a full member of the Canadian Forces?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Certainly, I think one of the elements that we take quite seriously, from I would say any traumatic event that takes place, is trying to provide resources available—be they members of RMC or on deployments and operations when there are significant incidents that take place—to allow people to have the opportunity to be able to reflect, seek support and discuss what they may be feeling and how they may be reacting to events that take place around them.

There are programs that are available at RMC. Perhaps General Bourgon can speak to that.

[MGen Lise Bourgon]

Thank you.

Indeed, just in the last two years, they have created a very interesting program. It's called resilience plus. It's a program looking at new officer cadets developing the resilience talent on how they deal with adversity, counselling, and mentorship and support. They meet regularly to develop those skills and to try to learn...because when you go through a military college, you have to remember that the selection process is difficult. Those officer cadets have succeeded all the way through their education, and they—

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

Could you tell me what number of reported sexual assaults occurred at RMC this year, especially given that we have implemented a number of steps to ensure that reporting is done?

The reason I'm so concerned about this is that I'm told—and was originally told this back in 2015—that there's not a single female who graduates from RMC without being raped.

I would like to know what the number was for 2021.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Mr. Chair, to release our statistics, we would have to get back to you. We don't have them at our fingertips. We certainly do know about reported numbers, but I unfortunately do not have them available at this time.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you. I will look forward to seeing the reporting of those numbers, both for suicides as well as sexual assault and rape, coming to the committee.

Thank you very much on behalf of all of the cadets who are currently attending.

Another important aspect of retention is keeping the troops who are in Canadian Forces housing in livable conditions. I'm told that people who report that there's a problem, and they happen not to be home or are called on short notice somewhere, and the work doesn't get done and they call back, can be charged with a violation by the Canadian Forces Housing Agency.

Is that type of practice actually in place?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That is an important question, but, unfortunately, Ms. Gallant has left no time for its answer, so you could possibly work it into a response to another question.

Mr. Spengemann, you are next, for six minutes, please.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Chair, thank you very much, and a very warm welcome to our senior leadership team of the Canadian Forces.

I would like to thank all of our witnesses for their service to our nation.

I would like to start with a proposition, which is that the nature of warfare and conflict have changed fundamentally. Wars are different; they are more internally focused, and so are displacements. Cyber-technology has become much more important. There may have been, as a result of that, or there may be at the moment, a convergence of the skill sets between the private sector and the Canadian Forces.

I wonder if I can get a quick reaction on whether that's a fair statement—whether that's a trend you're discerning—that because of the changing nature of what the Canadian Forces do, there is greater competition for those skills.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I would agree that we are in competition with Canadian industry, Canadian business, for the talented Canadians who exist. I would say that the changing nature of warfare certainly requires us to be producing and creating and training people on different skill sets than we might have 40 years ago. That's because of the nature of the technological advancements, as well as I would say the change and focus on information operations and the cyber domain, the space domain. Those are all areas where I would say previously they were not traditionally focused on as military skill sets.

Certainly space, cybersecurity and information are elements that contribute to global society at large, and so there is a skill set there.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thanks very much, Lieutenant-General Allen. That's really helpful.

To the extent that's true, that poses a problem, because you're competing for talent in the private sector and you need to build talent pipelines inside the Canadian Forces, but it also creates an opportunity with respect to the transferability of skills whenever somebody who served in the Canadian Forces chooses to return to the private sector, or potentially even re-enters.

Is that a fair statement?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Yes, I would absolutely agree with that statement, Mr. Chair. It's one of the fundamental principles of what we've seen with reserve service. Reservists come and work part-time in the CAF, but bring with them all of the skills and talents they have in their civilian lives and their civilian jobs.

Beyond that, I think there are opportunities for us, even in full-time service, to be working with industry and other entities in a more collaborative way and, perhaps, in a way to transfer skills more to advance the elements we are working on.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That transferability of skills, be it in cyber, high tech or the medical and life sciences, would be not only a key factor in recruitment, but potentially also a factor in retention. As someone goes through a career in the Canadian Forces and becomes more senior and skilled, they would have greater marketability upon their exit and return to the private sector.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

I would agree.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

How flexible do you think the Canadian Forces are at the moment with respect to returning to the private sector, perhaps mid-career and potentially as a re-entry into the Canadian Forces at a later career stage? This is an out-of-the-box question.

Is the traversing of the civilian/military line, picking up skills on either side of the fence and then bringing them to the benefit of the other organization something that could be more developed?