National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2022

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I don't have much time left, Minister, so if I may, I'd like some clarification from you.

To depoliticize the matter of misconduct, would it be appropriate, in your opinion, for the ombudsman to report to Parliament instead of reporting directly to you?

You can answer yes or no.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Let me just say that I personally will be reporting directly to Parliament as a result of Madam Arbour's report, and I will do that prior to the end of 2022. In addition, in direct response to Madam Arbour's report, I will be appointing an external monitor who will oversee me and the progress in implementing the report in the most efficacious and expedient manner.

Let's be clear: Madam Arbour was very careful to ensure that there were procedural safeguards in place to ensure the implementation of her report, and we are going to follow her recommendations in that regard.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Normandin.

Ms. Blaney, welcome to the committee. You have six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, as well for being here today. I appreciate your taking some time with us.

I am the proud representative of the 19 Wing in Comox, and I just want to have a bit of an opportunity to ask you about an article that came out not too long ago in which one of the senior officers was telling some of the members that perhaps the only way they could find housing would be to work with the Vancouver Island North Habitat for Humanity.

Now, I don't want to say anything negative about the senior officer. I think they were providing a real alternative in a situation that is profoundly hard. Housing in our riding is hard to find, whether it's to rent or to purchase. The costs have gone up dramatically. We know that our military families have to travel quite extensively. We also know that in our area, there's a long relationship between Habitat for Humanity and the 19 Wing members, who've spent many years volunteering their time to help build houses for other people, but we also have to acknowledge that there is just not enough military housing. I notice that we're not seeing a substantive support for that in these estimates.

Minister, why isn't there a substantive amount of resources going into military housing when we know that military families have to travel from one part of this country to another and provide stability for their families? If they have nowhere to live.... Just so you know, Minister, there are many service members in my riding who are travelling, in some cases, an hour to an hour and a half just to get to work every day because of the lack of housing.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Mr. Chair, I thank the honourable member for the question, which is a good one. Clearly she is outlining an issue that we are taking very seriously in the Canadian Armed Forces and at the Department of National Defence more generally. She has clearly outlined an important issue facing Canadian Armed Forces members not only in British Columbia but across the country, and I want to indicate that we are taking this issue seriously. We are working with stakeholders to align resources and acquire additional housing.

In 2022-23, for example, we are investing $55 million in residential housing for Canadian Armed Forces members. We are investing $445 million over the coming years to tackle this important issue. We've also put in place supports for our members when they relocate, because we know that is something that is particular to members of the Canadian Armed Forces. We are, for example, reimbursing them for legal and real estate fees and we're covering some expenses for dual residency for up to six months if a CAF member cannot sell their residence.

I thank the member for the question and I want to indicate that we are taking action on this. We do recognize that it is a problem. Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

To come back to that, though, Minister, we know that the residential housing unit numbers have gradually decreased since 2013, while the need has increased substantially, and that the Canadian Forces housing agency has identified a need for about 5,200 to 7,200 additional housing units across the country. That is pretty substantial, and we're not seeing the numbers follow that at all.

I'm just wondering. We know that retention and attraction continue to be significant challenges, and I would assume that those things are correlated. If you have nowhere to live, if it's hard to move your family because there is nowhere to live, if you're having to have that lifestyle of driving an hour and a half away, which means that you're missing up to three hours a day with your family because of that, it's going to put a damper on people's impression that this is a good plan.

How are you addressing that ideal of retention and attraction and putting in that idea of having housing? I hear the numbers you're throwing out, but what we're seeing again and again is that housing is not being built. We're not seeing the commitment to building it, and that means that it's getting harder and harder for military families. I think we ask enough of them.

How are you going to address this in a more meaningful way and could you give a bit of a timeline? You threw out some numbers, but how long are the people in my constituency specifically going to have to wait until there's any housing built on the base?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

To be clear, I'm not simply throwing out numbers. This is actual funding that we are committing to address the issue you raised, but moving on, I will respond with the specifics that we are undertaking in addition to the items I outlined just a moment ago.

First, to ensure the post living differential allowance effectively supports CAF members and their families and addresses affordability concerns, DND is reviewing the actual policy. We are undertaking a policy review to address retention issues, among a number of other things, and we know that housing and relocation is one of those things.

In addition, the funding that I mentioned in my previous answer will go towards...and this is what I believe the member was specifically asking. We're going to be using that funding to address renovation projects to ensure the existing 11,000 or so housing units are functional and suitable. We're going to be constructing new housing units at bases and wings, including at CFBs Comox, Shilo and Dundurn.

We are working on this as part of a comprehensive approach to recruitment and retention, and we know and will continue to reiterate that people are at the core of everything we do. That's why, when I am at bases, I always meet with families, because families are at the heart of supporting our Canadian Armed Forces. This was the case last week in Valcartier when I met with the families on the base right there.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

The minister has a hard stop at 4:30, and we have a 25-minute round.

We have 26 minutes to do a 25-minute round, so I'm looking for you to stay on track.

Madam Kerry-Lynne Findlay, you have five minutes.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I thought you were going to give me that extra minute.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

No.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Minister, thank you for being here.

You mentioned in your remarks that in the months to come there would be announcements about “new funding opportunities”, including on continental defence and modernizing NORAD.

I'm just wondering if you could clarify for me what you mean by “new funding opportunities”. Are these already included in the estimates we are talking about today, or are you saying that you're going to be asking for further funding? If so, in what amount?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Thank you so much.

Modernizing NORAD, as you mentioned, is a priority for me and for our government. We will invest over $8 billion in budget 2022 for additional defence spending, and this will include over $6 billion for, among other things, continental defence. That builds on the $252 million that we committed through budget 2021.

We will be continuing to come forward with a plan to modernize NORAD. In fact, I am travelling to Colorado with the Prime Minister tomorrow to visit the North American site for NORAD.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Minister, you and the minister of procurement have said that you're still negotiating the sale of F-35s, but as a member of the consortium, Canada gets the F-35 at the same price as the U.S. in the year of purchase. We understand that Saab was debriefed on the F-35 competition last Friday, so why the continuing talk about a competition and process?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I'm going to say, first and foremost, that we are in the finalization phase of our contract negotiations for the F-35s, and that is something our government takes very seriously given the needs of the RCAF. We will move to finalize the process as soon as possible for the 88 future fighters. In terms of the specific question relating to Saab, I will ask my deputy minister if he could explicate further.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

We can deal with that later. While you're here, I'd like to make use of the time with you, if I may.

Can you confirm that Canada is purchasing a block of F-35s from the scrapped Turkish purchase of Block 3 aircraft while the latest model of the Block 4 is unavailable, Minister?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We are purchasing 88 future fighters from Lockheed Martin, and we are finalizing the contract at the current time.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

All right. That's not an answer, but....

Will you confirm that the maintenance and sustainment work on our F-35s will be done in the U.S. because Lockheed Martin controls the intellectual property of the aircraft?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

The negotiations for the F-35 contract with Lockheed Martin are still ongoing with a number of the issues that you are mentioning. In fact, those negotiations are being handled out of PSPC, and the minister there would be the more appropriate person to respond to those questions.

Thank you.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I did ask during committee of the whole and didn't get answers.

Right now CAE does Canada's military pilot training. Do you support CAE and training pilots at home by a Canadian company?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

We are very committed to ensuring that our pilots receive the training they need. The competition is ongoing.

I will ask my deputy minister if he could provide further details regarding those negotiations and the competition.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I'll ask questions of the deputy minister later. Thank you.

I am advised that the future aircrew training program has been weighted for either an Italian or a British company to win and to train pilots outside of Canada. The question is whether the government is prepared to lose all those Canadian jobs at CAE and its partners to training Canadian pilots in Europe. Are you aware of the issue, Minister?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Of course I'm aware of issues relating to the labour market in our country. Our policy, especially in terms of the mandate of Minister Champagne at ISED, is to ensure that we are continuing to support Canadian businesses to grow Canadian jobs, whether in the national shipbuilding strategy or in any other area of procurement. Canadian economic benefits always play an important factor in our competitions.

Thank you.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Findlay.

Madam Lambropoulos, go ahead for five minutes, please.