National Defence Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Dale Kirsch]

In the Arctic, most of our work is done with charter aircraft or having our volunteers serve on military aircraft as spotters.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. O'Rourke, I'd like to turn my questions to you.

You mentioned in the last hour the differences between how many countries, Arctic nations—I think you referenced eight—have a delineation between the military and then the coast guard as a civilian organization. It's us and Sweden. I thought Mr. Kelly asked pretty important questions about capacity to respond.

Broadly, as quickly as you can, what are some of the public policy rationales for why we wouldn't have some of our Canadian Coast Guard more involved and integrated in the military response, to make sure that if your vessel is there, it can be a quick response, and that we do have the ability to intervene as necessary? What are the public policy rationales as to why they wouldn't be brought together?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

There is a danger here of getting into public policy from this particular witness, but if he feels comfortable responding on the public policy, I'm perfectly prepared to let the witness respond.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Let me reframe the question. For countries that do have that integration, what are some of the benefits or how do they respond in those instances that would maybe not be possible in Canada...?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I think that when we look at search and rescue specifically, I'm not sure there is a benefit one way or the other.

I appreciate that, Mr. Chair, and I think that from a policy perspective what I would say is simply that the Coast Guard delivers a lot of different services—environmental response, icebreaking, search and rescue—which are all internationally civilian in nature.

These other organizations, these other coast guards, like the U.S. Coast Guard, for example, have additional law enforcement and regulatory responsibilities, which in Canada reside either with the RCMP or Transport Canada. It's really just a different model. I wouldn't say that we don't work as effectively because it's part of different parts of the organizations. We have very good relationships with the RCMP and Transport Canada.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I have two quick questions. I have about a minute and a half.

On pathways, as you perhaps mentioned in your remarks, how often are Coast Guard boats actually patrolling? Are there regular patrol routes? How does that differentiate? I know we're talking about search and rescue today, but I'm more curious about the regular pathways that our Coast Guard ships would make in terms of monitoring our coasts.

[Neil O'Rourke]

In the Arctic, we don't have specific patrols, per se, one of our ships comes from the west coast, and is essentially always going through Alaskan waters coming from the west, The other six come from the east.

Our ships are deployed based on icebreaking requirements first and foremost. That also offers us an opportunity to have some coverage for search and rescue and environmental response, and to support other departments.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

What would be necessary? You mentioned that you can bring RCMP and Transport Canada folks on. Is there merit in trying to have some of your officers also double as peace officers or have that constabulary authority such that it can be a response? Is that something that can be done within your organization?

[Neil O'Rourke]

It's not something that we have the mandate for right now. We certainly work with those partner agencies. We don't do exchanges, sending our personnel to their organizations at this point, but they do work very closely. Whether with JRCCs or MSOCs, those are areas where our respective organizations work together side by side.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Blois.

You have the floor for six minutes, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our new witnesses for being with us.

Mr. O'Rourke, is the current situation with Russia and China influencing or could it influence your rescue needs? Are we reacting in the same way, or is the political situation having an effect at the moment?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Yes, it has an effect. I talked a little bit about the situation at the North Pole and working with Russia. For us, the situation in the Arctic with respect to Russia and China is different. Russia is an Arctic state and a member of the Arctic Council and the Arctic Coast Guard Forum. So it is a country that we are used to working with in relation to the Arctic, except in the last 10 months, so it can certainly have an effect.

As for China, it's different, because they are not an Arctic state as such. Certainly, they are showing an interest. From time to time, Chinese ships come to the north and, as with all ships, we observe what they do. However, it's a bit different, because the relationships are not the same.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I am not a regular on this committee, but I find it fascinating.

Secondly, it seems to me that we've been hearing about Canada's icebreaker needs for decades. There is always sparring about it, depending on which party is in power and which companies are being dealt with.

Do you feel that politicians take your real needs into account?

[Neil O'Rourke]

As Mr. Wight mentioned, for years we have been working on the renewal of our fleet and the plan itself.

From our side, we are very happy that the decision has been made to invest funds to make the necessary purchases to ensure the long-term stability of our fleet. Certainly, there will be construction to be done and a lot of personnel to be hired to work on the vessels, but we are happy that the decision has been made to proceed with the renewal of the fleet.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Either you are a real politician, or you have endless patience. From the outside, I find that everything is proceeding very slowly. You go from one company to another to give out contracts, put them aside, and then go back to a previous company because some are not capable of doing the work. That said, I respect what you're saying and I understand the situation.

I'm going to ask you right now the question I was going to ask you at the end.

A committee like this exists to produce a report and make recommendations, which are based on evidence. If you had the opportunity, in your professional category, with your status, to make one or two recommendations, what would they be?

[Neil O'Rourke]

Thank you for your question. I will answer it from a search and rescue perspective.

I think I'm going to go back a little bit to an answer I gave in the last hour. One of the recommendations is about VHF radio communication systems. We need more capacity in the Arctic to communicate with the people who live there. That could help us and obviously help the communities.

On the other hand, when you look at the marine search and rescue system in Canada, we have the auxiliaries, the icebreakers and the same capabilities as elsewhere in Canada. However, we lack a number of search and rescue stations in the north. In principle, the purpose of these stations is to have permanent Coast Guard employees, who have expertise, can work with local communities and also respond to calls. For example, at the moment, when there is a search and rescue call and we have to send one of our icebreakers, that means, in principle, that it is no longer used as an icebreaker to help the communities receive their deliveries. There are implications to that.

Compared to elsewhere in Canada, these two aspects of the search and rescue system are, in principle, a little different in the north. Personally, I would add that this is an opportunity for improvement.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I would like you to tell us more about VHF radio communication systems. What are they exactly? What are the specific requirements?

[Neil O'Rourke]

On the technology side, there are a number of ways to do this, but I won't go into that.

In principle, the VHF radio communication system is a bit like the 9‑1‑1 system. If there is an emergency, you dial 9‑1‑1. When you're at sea, it's channel 16. Without a VHF radio communication system, you can't communicate. Every place has different needs. Sometimes all you need is a repeater. On the other hand, it might be a bit of an investment.

There are different technologies and different ways to do it.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Ms. Mathyssen, you have six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To continue on that, it was noted that the Canadian Armed Forces or the government of Canada is going to put into place the medium earth orbit satellite, our search and rescue system. It is only in the implementation phase, I understand.

How are you planning to work that into all of these different levels of communication?

[Neil O'Rourke]

I'm not sure I can tell you about that specific system, and whether we're going to utilize it or how.

More generally, what I can say is that, for both our Marine Communications and Traffic Services centre in Iqaluit, which monitors all the traffic, and those JRCCs, which essentially manage search and rescue.... From their standpoint, they certainly use information. We use a lot of satellite-based information, but I couldn't specifically tell you whether we would utilize this one service as opposed to the others.

Generally, we try to gather information from a variety of sources, because one might go out, sometimes. It also gives us an opportunity to ensure the information we're gathering is consistent, because, sometimes—especially in the north—there can be service gaps and coverage area issues. By utilizing multiple technologies, we hope to have as full a picture as possible.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I will now switch over to Mr. Kirsch.

It was mentioned in the context of the 1,700 volunteers that a lot of the search capabilities come from charter aircraft.

In addition to charter aircraft, could you give me more of an idea about where you get your volunteers?

[Dale Kirsch]

In southern Canada, our volunteers use their own aircraft. For instance, I fly my own [Technical difficulty—Editor] search and rescue. I'm basically available to fly 24 hours a day, almost 365 days of the year. I have another job, but I have a lot of flexibility. When we go up north, where Dave is, or to Iqaluit—up in those areas—pretty much the only way for us to fly is to charter aircraft. We really don't have....

There are a couple of issues in the north. A lot of the private aircraft we use utilize aviation fuel called “100 low lead”. In the Arctic, a lot of the fuel is for turbine aircraft. They just have jet fuel in all of these different areas, so we can't even fly our airplanes up there. The only practical way is to charter aircraft or get the government to buy us aircraft that we can use up in the north. We're probably talking about a couple of million dollars per airplane, in order to get a plane with turbine capabilities that we can use up in the north.

Dave, do you want to comment on chartering?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Just as a caution, Mr. Taylor, I'm told that there may be some issue with the translators hearing what you have to say. Go at it slowly.