National Defence Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Obviously it's a very topical question as we look to the future.

I wanted to finish the last thought. The fact is that as we talked about threats to national security and defence in the Arctic as a whole, I noted that it's not one department, but is a whole-of-government effort across all elements of our national power to get to this.

All-domain awareness is critical. All-domain awareness and intelligence for the military are equally important to the economic factors as we're talking about who owns the infrastructure in the north.

I think you're tracking the recent announcements by government. We're committed to ensuring that NORAD continues to modernize, ensuring safety and contributing to the security of our continent with our allies in the U.S.. That binational command has been around for almost seven decades.

That's why, over the next six years, we're investing $3 billion in NORAD. Over the next 20 years, it's going to be almost $40 billion for NORAD modernization. These include investments across all domains to ensure that we can not only respond to emerging aerospace threats but also ensure that we have that multidomain awareness in the north.

When I talk about multidomain awareness, what I mean is what we are seeing in the air, on the land, in the sea and below the sea, in the information space, in space and in cyber. When I talk about all domains, they are simply all the domains we have. We need to be aware and have that all-domain awareness in all theatres of operation, but specifically in our north, to make sure that we know what's going on.

I will give it to Jonathan Quinn. Our policy advisers were talking about NORAD modernization, which is a significant policy for the Government of Canada.

[Jonathan Quinn]

Thank you very much, sir.

Thanks for the question, Mr. Chair.

I think Admiral Auchterlonie covered it very well.

To remind committee members, the NORAD modernization package that Minister Anand announced in June included a series of investments across five key areas.

On the awareness side, there's significant investment in over-the-horizon radar technology that will dramatically enhance our ability to monitor aerospace threats to the continent.

There are investments in technology-enabled decision-making, and command and control, using artificial intelligence, machine learning and cloud computing. We'll have the ability to ingest and analyze all the information coming in from those sensors much more quickly in order to enable fast decision-making.

New air weapons, including longer-range air-to-air missiles, will enable the current and future fighter fleet to defend against aerospace threats, such as cruise missiles.

There is also support for infrastructure investments, including an additional investment in air-to-air refuelling aircraft and enhancements to fighter aircraft infrastructure across the country at NORAD's forward-operating locations in the north.

Finally, there are research and development investments. As Admiral Auchterlonie said, these research and development funds would be across all domains. These are to make sure that Canada is at the cutting edge of technology in defending against potential threats to the continent in all the domains Admiral Auchterlonie mentioned.

Thank you.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I'm going to shift gears a bit here.

How concerned should Canada be about the potential transit of foreign nuclear submarines in the Northwest Passage? What is Canada currently doing to monitor foreign submarine activity in the Arctic, and how can the country enforce its sovereignty? What does Canada require to monitor, and respond adequately to, foreign subs in our waters right now?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That was about 16 questions in one.

I'll leave it to you to sort that out within a couple of minutes.

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Those are very pertinent questions.

I talked about domain awareness. We want to ensure we know what's going on within our sovereign territory, waters and airspace. Making sure we have domain awareness above the sea, on the sea and below the sea is a key tenet of ensuring that within NORAD modernization, as well.

I believe you heard from the commander of the navy with respect to under-ice capability. I won't repeat that testimony from a few weeks ago.

The fact is that we want to ensure we have domain awareness of our allied submarines, as well as potential adversaries in the region. Just to be clear, we do have that. Given the sensitivities of the submarine waterspace management, I'm probably not going to go into detail. We conduct co-operative waterspace management with our closest ally, the U.S., given the fact that we have submarines on both coasts and they have submarines on both coasts. We conduct this co-operative waterspace management, which allows us to be certain about which boats are in the water in all our territorial seas and adjacent waters.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. May.

Ms. Normandin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being here. We are always very grateful to them.

In the opening presentations, you said that the main infrastructure problems related to energy, transportation and communications. I know you wanted to talk a bit about rescue operations.

Which of those three elements is the most problematic? Which of those elements should we work on as a priority to make sure we have sufficient rescue capacity in the future?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

That question is probably for General Godbout, so I am going to let him answer.

[BGen Pascal Godbout]

Thank you, Admiral.

I really was talking about the challenges associated with the civil infrastructure that exists in the north. With respect to search and rescue activities, I am going to focus on ground operations.

As a means of communication, many people in the north are equipped with satellite communication terminals, such as Garmin or GPS devices. The biggest problem that arises in search and rescue is definitely associated with communication. When people don't report in on time and we have trouble communicating with them to find out whether they are safe and sound, we then have to initiate search operations. Ground searches are conducted first by people in the territory or community. If local resources are insufficient, they can ask me to call in the Canadian Rangers to augment the ground search capacities and find the missing people.

So I would say that what presents the biggest problem in that regard is usually communication difficulties.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to come back to testimony we heard a little earlier this week. We know that the costs associated with marine rescue are extremely high. Often, having to initiate a marine rescue operation is a result of communication problems.

Can you give us an idea of the costs involved in initiating a ground rescue operation?

[BGen Pascal Godbout]

I don't have the figures to show the total costs.

For National Defence, requesting the Canadian Rangers' assistance does not involve a financial cost itself; it depends on the Rangers' availability in a specific community. Often, the Canadian Rangers wear several hats in a community, so it may be that they are already involved in search and rescue activities, but under another responsibility.

To tell the truth, the cost is calculated more in terms of human capital. In a small community, it really is a race, when the people join efforts to find someone who has gone out onto the land for economic or traditional activities.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to continue in the same vein as my colleague Pat Kelly, who was talking a bit earlier about the eventual arrival of the F-35s.

If I understood correctly, all the infrastructure is not yet in place for receiving the F-35s, if Canada does receive them someday.

About how much time will it take for all the necessary infrastructure to be put in place?

[MGen Iain Huddleston]

I could try to...

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Iain, if you could—

I would just like to say that this is one of the major challenges in modernizing NORAD. As the Commander of the Joint Task Force North said, it is difficult for all infrastructure in the north.

I'm going to let Mr. Huddleston give you more details.

[MGen Iain Huddleston]

I don't have the exact figures. We are currently in the planning and needs determination period.

With the decision on F-35s still pending, we do not have all the details with respect to the infrastructure requirements. Therefore, there is a planning period that needs to be focused upon over the next year or two in order to fully define and provide the details that would answer your question. The infrastructure investments are aligned, though, with the delivery of the fighters.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I think it's a valid question. We heard the testimony of Les Klapatiuk from International Logistical Support, who told us that in the private sector, if he wanted to upgrade this kind of infrastructure, it would take him eight to ten years. Canada should be receiving the F-35s in ten years or so, because the CF-18s will no longer be in working condition.

As we know, it is often faster to go via the private sector than via the Canadian Armed Forces' procurement system. Am I to understand that if we do not go via the private sector, the infrastructure may not be in place on time to receive the F-35s?

[MGen Iain Huddleston]

I would say no, and I will explain the reason.

The forward operating locations are already fit for purpose for fighter operations. They need to be refreshed and renovated in order to support the F-35, but the fundamental structures will, to a great extent, support F-35 operations. There are complexities, but they're not going to be complexities that take us down a 10-year timeline.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Go ahead, Ms. Mathyssen, for six minutes, please.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much to the witnesses for being with us today.

I think it was you, Vice-Admiral Auchterlonie, who was talking about that domain awareness and the need for a lot more machine learning and AI and those technologies. What should the federal government be doing now in terms of that modernization of NORAD to help with regard to providing those incentives and innovation within...? It's a non-traditional defence group that is providing that, so how can the federal government provide what's needed in the future for that modernization?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

That's a very pertinent question. It's very interesting as a time of change right now. I think as we talk about domain awareness, as we talk about the ongoing change to the complexities in the world security situation right now, you're seeing technology advance at a rapid pace. This is part of NORAD modernization in terms of the investments in Canadian defence and research to make sure we're on the cutting edge of this.

You touched on a number of things that are really critical. Potential adversaries and allies are now getting onboard with machine learning, with artificial intelligence. I can move that into quantum, which obviously is another one moving forward, and at the same time synthetic biology, which nobody wants to talk about. There are all these sorts of things that are actually real.

The key word for me before I pass it to Jon is that we talk of things in terms of emerging technologies, but they are no longer emerging technologies; they have emerged. I think it is really key for the committee to understand that these technologies exist today, and they can be used to enhance and amplify operations in the battle space and ensure domain awareness throughout.

I will pass it to Jon in terms of the policy side.

[Jonathan Quinn]

Thanks very much, sir, and thanks for the question, Mr. Chair.

To supplement what Admiral Auchterlonie said, we have been in the process of leading up to the proposal to government on NORAD modernization, and since Minister Anand's announcement in June we have been having some engagements with Canadian industry associations.

We are very lucky in Canada to have a fantastic ecosystem with significant expertise in all of these high-technology areas. We have been conducting those engagements to give them a sense of the direction we're heading so they can prepare themselves to compete for contracts as we move into implementation.

We have also been working really closely with our other government department colleagues to make sure that we're reaching out to all of the right people and incentivizing Canadian companies to compete for these important contracts going forward.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

In terms of that foray into what those contracts lead to and the advancement of them, how are we prepared to protect the intellectual property rights of those companies, considering that is a huge obstacle when we talk about China?

[Jonathan Quinn]

It's an important question, indeed. It's admittedly a little bit outside of my area of expertise, but I can assure you that all of those measures are in place.

In addition, I would say as well to the intellectual property rights of Canadian companies, we will also be concerned about economic security and making sure that those advancements we're generating in Canada and North America don't fall into the wrong hands.

Again, there are robust processes and policies in place to protect that side of things as well, but I suspect others in the department can probably provide a more detailed answer to that question.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Going back into the search and rescue conversations, on Tuesday we were talking to an organization that relied heavily upon volunteers. In a previous study, this committee was talking about exactly that in terms of aid to civil authority and the reliance upon volunteers.

Can you talk about how we're going to continue to maintain that? The group on Tuesday, CASARA, were concerned because there are such high costs. They are mainly pilots who are trying to provide something out of the joy of flying and wanting to be a part of our overall defence and service to their country. How are we ensuring that we are taking care of those volunteers and the associations to ensure that we have that coverage?

[VAdm J.R. Auchterlonie]

That's a very pertinent question as we talk about search and rescue in a massive country.

As I said earlier, I'm the commander of operations. That also includes search and rescue throughout Canada and in the north. Just to provide some context before I turn it to Iain, who is specifically one of our search and rescue commanders and the commander of our air assets, we provide and coordinate SAR through our joint rescue coordination centres and the various SAR installations throughout the country. We do it in co-operation with partners.

SAR, again, is not a solely military thing. It's not solely the folks in yellow aircraft. It's in conjunction with the Canadian Coast Guard; it's in conjunction with RCMSAR, which is a volunteer organization on the water; it's in conjunction with CASARA, which is a volunteer organization in the air; and with our local ground search and rescue partners throughout the country. We're that coordination function through the JRCCs.

Specifically with respect to CASARA, I will turn it to Iain, as he's our lead in terms of providing the air assets for SAR throughout the country.