National Defence Committee on Feb. 7th, 2023

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Okay.

We talked a little bit about conventional warfare. We always say that the war of the future won't look like what we're seeing in Ukraine on the ground. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you mentioned “in conjunction”, or “hybrid” and those things. I think it was you who said that the scope of Russian cyber-threats is very “sophisticated”, but what we're seeing is a lack of success by Russia with regard to the war in Ukraine.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that hybrid warfare. We've said for years that it's not going to be the battlefields of yesterday where we see wars, yet we're seeing this little bit of a hybrid now with some cyber, some disinformation and some traditional conventional warfare.

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

That's a fascinating question.

I think the thing that the Ukraine war reminds us of is that at the moment a lot of it looks like the First World War. There's always that element of brute force, of machine on machine, man on man and woman on woman in combat these days, which we mustn't forget.

I think the expectation going into the outset of the Ukraine war was that the Russians would be more sophisticated actors in terms of both conventional military capabilities and cyber-capabilities. They haven't proven to be either—fortunately. That's not to say that they're not trying to learn and do better, and obviously the outcome of their war in Ukraine is very much up for grabs at this stage.

We have an inclination to over-invest in fears of the future of warfare and technological change and so on, but it's important to look at that.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired, Mr. Fisher.

We have five minutes left. We're going to split that half-and-half between Monsieur Desilets and Ms. Mathyssen.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. By the way, your French was excellent earlier.

Given my fellow member's wonderful idea, I'd like Mr. Shull to get back to the committee in writing with the answers to three questions.

First, can a cyber-attack be considered a war crime?

Second, what type of response might we expect if a NATO country were the target of a major cyber-attack? Would it be considered an attack against NATO? Would NATO be at war?

This third one is pretty broad. Mr. Wark, earlier you mentioned certain recommendations you would like to see in the report.

Mr. Shull, are there recommendations you would like the committee to include in its report?

Mr. Wark, this one is for you. It ties in with my last question about disinformation, which I consider to be extremely dangerous. It's all over the place right now. I used to be a school principal, so young people and education come to mind. Schools need to work on prevention to help young people distinguish between real information and fake information.

Prevention aside, how much of the responsibility falls on the media and how much rests with us, as elected officials?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You can answer that in one minute or less.

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would say that the media plays a huge role. Of course, the media as an institution has changed before our very eyes in the last couple of decades. There's the mainstream media, and there's everything else that's out there. I would say that the mainstream media has a strongly embedded code of practice and ethics to try to ensure that they are reporting, as they see it, truthfully and holding themselves to account. That is not, of course, the case for actors in social media, who have no such code of conduct.

At the end of the day, I think it really depends on the ability of ordinary Canadian citizens to decide where they want to get their sources of information from and, hopefully, it's not purely in an echo chamber kind of fashion, where they just get their sources of information from places that confirm pre-existing beliefs. My hope is that many Canadians ultimately will be able to do that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ms. Mathyssen, the last question goes to you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Interestingly, Mr. Wark, in a previous study we were talking about Arctic security.

We had Professor Byers here. He said that one of the biggest things we and the government have to focus on is the entire replacement of the RADARSAT Constellation system. That was one of his biggest points. Can you speak to that? Do you agree or disagree? It's a big point.

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

I'll be very brief and refer you to a recent Auditor General's report on Arctic surveillance. I think it made the very important point that the Canadian practice for procuring new satellite capabilities, particularly ones that can assist in monitoring our Arctic space, both for military purposes and for civilian purposes, is a very slow-moving one. We face a circumstance in which current satellite systems like RADARSAT and the trio of satellites may go out of operational capability before we're able to replace them.

There is this gap between long-term DND and Canadian Space Agency planning for the replacement of these systems and when they may run out of capabilities, and that gap I think clearly has to be closed. The RADARSAT Constellation is a very important attribute for Canada, and I think that, overall, Canada needs to invest much more heavily in satellite-based capabilities for our own needs.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

To jump around a bit, we've talked a lot about needs in terms of having the right personnel, the people, within cybersecurity to do those jobs. Is Canada doing enough? Can the Government of Canada do more in terms of training those people?

I know that's a bit of a catch-up, but what can be done in terms of the government's investment in people coming into these jobs?

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

I think that would be an interesting follow-up question for CSE officials, who have their own training systems within CSE, about the extent to which they are able to migrate those training systems out to other federal government departments and agencies and out to the private sector.

I don't know. I suspect it's an important gap that you've identified.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. The time has expired.

I apologize to Ms. Gallant and Ms. O'Connell that we weren't able to get their questions in.

Dr. Wark, as a Canadian who's proud of my Ukrainian heritage, I appreciate all your comments about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I found it interesting that you said that a cyber-attack in Ukraine should be considered a war crime.

Just a quick yes or no, is a cyber-attack on a foreign nation an act of war?

[Dr. Wesley Wark]

I think the simplest answer is that it's not clear in the international law, but I think Canada can take a lead.

We've always taken a lead—or like to think we've taken a lead—in terms of international law developments, particularly at the International Criminal Court, and I would like to see the Government of Canada stand up and support the Ukrainian position on this and say that cyber-attacks on civilian infrastructure are a war crime.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much, Dr. Wark.

Mr. Shull, I thank you as well.

I'd like to remind committee members that our Friday meeting will be, again, on cybersecurity and cyberwarfare. It will be our study with academics, and next week we'll be meeting with DND and CAF officials.

With that, we're adjourned.